Ritual Magic issue

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

"For each prerequisite the spell or its prerequisites would have in the standard system, the default is at a cumulative -1 (e.g., a spell with one prerequisite that itself has one prerequisite defaults to college skill-2). (...)

Magery adds to core skill, college skills, and spells. If standard and ritual magic coexist, normal Magery and Ritual Magery are separate advantages.
All other rules are the same" (B242)

GURPS Magic shows that advantages (like Magery) are not in the Prerequisite Count. Lend Energy requires M1 or Empathy advantage but its Prerequisite Count is 0 not 1 as implied in the Basic Set. This is what I mean about revisions, clarifications, and-or have conflicts.

But if you're not using GURPS Magic, then that is not the rule. The Basic Set does not calculate prerequisite counts for you. It's just different, not wrong. And GURPS Magic does, in fact, suggest adding Magery and so forth to the prerequisite count, which option brings it in line with a strict reading of the Basic Set.

GURPS isn't modeling the physics of some real world somewhere that it has to get right. It's magic; they're making it up. It works however it works. The Basic Set is a high-level set of rules for any world; GURPS Magic presents various options for specific worlds. Magic does not say "When we said 'prerequisite' in the Basic Set, we didn't mean Magery."

Yes GURPS isn't Pokemon but one of the things that caused 3.x to become such a FUBARed mess with regard to the Universal part was inconstancy between books with Supers being the main offender.

The inconsistencies were caused by the fact that many world-specific rules essential to running specific worlds were not put into the Basic Set, so the supplements had to supply them. And the various supplements were inconsistent with each other, not with the Basic Set.

The Fourth Edition mostly overcame that problem by including nearly all the tools you need to construct most worlds in the Basic Set. The supplements won't contradict themselves much, because they're all based on the groundwork in the Basic Set. They present options for modifying what's in the Basic Set, but as options they do not carry the force of game law, and may be different than options in other supplements.

By calling for rules in supplements to override what's in the Basic Set, you are actually asking for the third edition problem to come back: you have to have all the supplements with "new discoveries" in order to do anything. Want to use ritual magic in your game? Can't do it without GURPS Magic, because that clarified what a prerequisite is. That's the third edition problem all over again.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by malloyd

This is true but somewhat misses the point. As does the original question really.

Sure the "correct current rule" is whatever the GM decides it is, no matter what is printed anywhere.

We're not talking about what rules a GM chooses to use; we're talking about whether rules published chronologically later than other rules are intended by SJG to override the earlier rules.

Maximara wants to treat the rules like the latest scientific discovery: we thought Newton's laws were correct, but Einstein showed us that they were really slightly different, so Einstein is more correct than Newton. The Basic Set said to count the prerequisites for ritual magic, but GURPS Magic said not to count Magery for that — unless you want to — so Magic is more correct than the Basic Set.

I don't believe GURPS is meant to be treated this way. The Basic Set is the "law," so far as it goes, and the supplements are optional to add in. (Everything in the Basic Set is optional too, of course, but it is the published basis of everything else.) If I only use the Basic Set, and I make my own Pilot! wildcard skill, I'm not doing it "wrong" because I didn't use the Pilot! skill in GURPS Supers. The Basic Set is "required"; nothing else is.

In this case I don't know, but think it's pretty likely that if anybody thought about it at all, they quite reasonably assumed that anybody lacking an appropriate level of Magery couldn't be considered a "professional" in the first place. That's clearly false for Hedge Magic, but is an easy thing to overlook.

The section this quote comes from is called "Mysteries of the Trade." It's about how various professions include magic in their work. Replace the ritual magic core skill with their professional skill and college skills with a (Profession) Magic skill. The book is pointing out that if you have a high- or very-high-mana setting, the professional needs no Magery, because people in high- or very-high-mana areas don't need Magery to cast spells. No exception to the usual magic rules is being granted here, just an acknowledgement that professions that include magic in their work will require a professional with Magery, unless the setting has high- or very-high-mana.

[Stormcrow]

And this is not to say that clarifications haven't been issued or that Kromm hasn't opined on things added in a supplement that he wishes had been put into the Basic Set. We just can't treat every word of every supplement this way. And those who haven't heard the Word of Kromm aren't consigned to damnation in Hell for interpreting the Basic Set in a different way than a later clarification.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by maximara

GURPS Fantasy uses a variant of the Ritual Magic system for Hedge Magic but has this comment: "In a high- or very-high-mana setting, any professional can cast any spell based on his profession, if only at default." The way this is worded it implies that even spells that require Magery 1+ can be cast (...)

Not really, since before those lines you also have this excerpt in "Mysteries of the Trade":

In a low- or normal-mana setting, casting the spells requires Magery 0 (...)

If we put such line in conjunction with the text you wrote, then it is clear the book talks about making an exemption for magery 0 spells. Also, by the end of the paragraph the book elaborates:

Ignite Fire-10 by default from Smith Magic-10 (since Ignite Fire has no prerequisites).

Prerequisites such as having magery 1+, I would say.

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you lack Magery, but you're in a High Mana area, can you learn and cast a spell that has Magery 1 as a prerequisite

I've always considered that if you live in a (very) high mana world, then you do not need magery 0 to cast magery 0 spells. But you do need magery 1 to cast advanced spells such as explosive fireball.

In my settings, magery is an advantage you can learn/improve if you study/train; however it also represents natural affinity if you buy it during character creation.

Originally Posted by maximara

GURPS Magic shows that advantages (like Magery) are not in the Prerequisite Count. (...)

I believe there are some adjustments to spell requirements in that book, but the spirit remains the same. Explosive fireball in the book of magic does not require magery 1, but it requires fireball (which requires magery 1).

GURPS magic says this:

Anyone can learn most spells – although in some worlds, you must be a mage to use the spells you know. Some spells specify a particular level of Magery as a prerequisite: if you lack the required Magery level, you cannot learn the spell.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

We're not talking about what rules a GM chooses to use; we're talking about whether rules published chronologically later than other rules are intended by SJG to override the earlier rules.

Maximara wants to treat the rules like the latest scientific discovery: we thought Newton's laws were correct, but Einstein showed us that they were really slightly different, so Einstein is more correct than Newton. The Basic Set said to count the prerequisites for ritual magic, but GURPS Magic said not to count Magery for that — unless you want to — so Magic is more correct than the Basic Set.

A handful of the books say exactly this ie 'the Basic set said this but we found that was "bad idea" so do this instead'.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I don't believe GURPS is meant to be treated this way. The Basic Set is the "law," so far as it goes, and the supplements are optional to add in. (Everything in the Basic Set is optional too, of course, but it is the published basis of everything else.) If I only use the Basic Set, and I make my own Pilot! wildcard skill, I'm not doing it "wrong" because I didn't use the Pilot! skill in GURPS Supers. The Basic Set is "required"; nothing else is.

The wording here is what I am talking about. Are you saying you have two different versions of the Pilot! skill (possible but weird given the huge range of wildcard skill) or your particular Supers setting doesn't have the Pilot! at all? The passage can be read either way.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I don't believe GURPS is meant to be treated this way. The Basic Set is the "law," so far as it goes, and the supplements are optional to add in. (Everything in the Basic Set is optional too, of course, but it is the published basis of everything else.) If I only use the Basic Set, and I make my own Pilot! wildcard skill, I'm not doing it "wrong" because I didn't use the Pilot! skill in GURPS Supers. The Basic Set is "required"; nothing else is.

Actually, that's a bit too simple. Let me comment on this from the perspective of an author of GURPS supplements.

When I write a supplement, I sometimes discuss a trait or a rule from the Basic Set, and say, "Here is what this actually means." That is not meant to be changing a rule; it's meant to be making it clear[er] what an existing rule means.

I sometimes say, "This rule in the Basic Set leads to problems; here is a variant rule that clears them up." For example, in Powers: The Weird and Template Toolkit 2: Races, I include a variant rule for the effects of high and low gravity. This produces exactly the same results for people native to Earth-normal gravity, but it works differently for a Martian on Jupiter or the reverse.

I sometimes say, "Here's an alterative rule." This is definitely changing a rule, and using it is entirely optional.

So there's a spectrum from pure interpretation to pure revision. I think a well written supplement ought to make it clear where a rule falls; I've tried to do that, but I expect I've gotten more careful about it over the years.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

A handful of the books say exactly this ie 'the Basic set said this but we found that was "bad idea" so do this instead'.

Yes, and I addressed that.

The wording here is what I am talking about. Are you saying you have two different versions of the Pilot! skill (possible but weird given the huge range of wildcard skill) or your particular Supers setting doesn't have the Pilot! at all? The passage can be read either way.

I'm saying my setting has my own custom Pilot! skill but I don't have GURPS Supers. I'm not deviating from GURPS if I write up my own Pilot! skill. Not because I'm free to change anything I want (that would be deviating), but because the Basic Set doesn't define a Pilot! skill, it gives me license to invent a Pilot! skill, and GURPS Supers is not normative over every GURPS game.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I'm saying my setting has my own custom Pilot! skill but I don't have GURPS Supers. I'm not deviating from GURPS if I write up my own Pilot! skill. Not because I'm free to change anything I want (that would be deviating), but because the Basic Set doesn't define a Pilot! skill, it gives me license to invent a Pilot! skill, and GURPS Supers is not normative over every GURPS game.

Actually the Basic Set does defines the range of wildcard skills in general:

"Wildcard skills include and replace all specific skills within their area." (sic) (B175)

Regarding your example, if it can be piloted in the game world then it is covered by Pilot! per the Basic Set. This is why I said having two different versions of Pilot! is possible but weird given the huge range of wildcard skills but then again I was thinking along the lines of Pilot (Land)! or Pilot (Sea)! rather then Pilot! itself. Contrast Blade! with Sword! and Katana!

Of course there are gray areas in wildcard skills. For instance would Alchemy or Astrology fall directly under Science! or only through their defaults? Heck, George Brown Goode of the Smithsonian desired “the collections to form a museum of anthropology, the word anthropology being applied in its most comprehensive sense” (Alexander, Edward P. (1983) Museum Masters - Their Museums and Their Influence. American Association for State and Local History. pg 288) which if you ran with that definition Anthropology! would be an insanely huge wildcard skill covering more then Science! does.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

Actually the Basic Set does defines the range of wildcard skills in general:

"Wildcard skills include and replace all specific skills within their area." (sic) (B175)

Yes, but deciding which skills are within their area is not always clear-cut. Supers says that Pilot! skill not only replaces all Pilot specializations, but also allows IQ-based Shiphandling for air or space vehicles, rolls to operate any weapons installed in any air or space vehicle, and for attacking with the vehicle itself. These are not necessarily completely obvious, and without Supers I might not have guessed them. I might also have added something else, maybe allowing all air and space specializations of Navigation, for instance.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Yes, but deciding which skills are within their area is not always clear-cut. Supers says that Pilot! skill not only replaces all Pilot specializations, but also allows IQ-based Shiphandling for air or space vehicles, rolls to operate any weapons installed in any air or space vehicle, and for attacking with the vehicle itself. These are not necessarily completely obvious, and without Supers I might not have guessed them. I might also have added something else, maybe allowing all air and space specializations of Navigation, for instance.

Actually given the way Piloting is written in the Basic Set Supers' interpretation makes perfect sense. "This is the ability to operate a specific type of aircraft or spacecraft." would cover the weapons of the vehicles and Shiphandling defaults to various forms of Piloting so those are covered.

Also GURPS 4e Power-Ups 7 explains "This is a minimalist wildcard as written. The GM might add Airshipman, Free Fall, Meteorology, Navigation (Air, Hyperspace, and Space), Parachuting, Spacer, and Vacc Suit – plus Electronics Operation (any) for vehicular systems, Freight Handling for cargos, and Mechanic for repairs, where air or space vehicles are involved – as befits the setting."

This what I meant by later works clarifying things. Supers was just too brief with what Pilot! could cover while Power-Ups 7 shows just how deep Pilot! could be GM willing and it logically follows what the Basic Set said.