Magic and the Law: Nerfing TRUTHSAYER (but not too much)

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

"Yes, I lied, I don't really like my boss' wife that much."

and if the judge asks about any other lies:

"I may have told one or two other white lies." It's a true statement, even if I also told multiple major lies in addition.

That's before you get into complex situations, like "I lied about the name of the person I said I had lunch with, because his or her family would prefer that we didn't meet, but it has no bearing on the investigation." Even if the prosecutors have a warrant to compel truth from a witness or suspect, there's going to be limits to how deeply they can probe, and lies about non-relevant details are going to complicate finding the truth about relevant details.

I agree with the sentiment upthread that any answer other than "No, I was not lying." will be considered contempt of court and get you thrown in a cell to rot for a few days, or whipped, depending on the standards of the society.

[Michael Cule]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

I agree with the sentiment upthread that any answer other than "No, I was not lying." will be considered contempt of court and get you thrown in a cell to rot for a few days, or whipped, depending on the standards of the society.

In Megalos, it may well lead to contempt of court charges, arrest and whipping.

But first it will lead to calls for a mage with Compel Truth or an enchantment to the same effect.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

"Yes, I lied, I don't really like my boss' wife that much."

A criminal trial is not a setting where they ask you if you like your boss's wife.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A criminal trial is not a setting where they ask you if you like your boss's wife.

Indeed. Presumably, at least when questioning nobles and other people who are considered to matter, there will be significant restrictions on what questions can be asked "under oath".

[khorboth]

Building on what I was saying earlier and using your categories:

Slaves and Serfs can be interrogated under Truthsayer at any time and Compel Truth can be used if they resist that interrogation.
(check)

What for free persons of no rank?
These people can technically be interrogated under the same conditions as Slaves and Serfs. However, they may file to contest the treatment, hiring their own Guild-approved Truthsayer. These guys are totally corrupt, so it necessitates the court hiring a third for a majority opinion. It's expensive, so in practice it's only done if the crime is worth the expense. Unless the person in question is poor.

What for the gentry? Knights and burgesses, that sort of thing.
These people are automatically provided their own Truthsayer at the expense of the court. This means that it's quite expensive to have them questioned under such circumstances. Therefore, unless one is QUITE sure of the results, AND the crime is sufficient to be worth prosecuting, it's just not done. One doesn't wish to ruin one's career, after all.

What for lesser nobles?
Not only are they provided with their own contrary Truthsayer, they may substitute other "relevant witnesses" who may testify if they have personally witnessed the relevant facts. In practice, these may well have had their memories altered. It hasn't been done in years.

What for higher nobles?
Just NO.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A criminal trial is not a setting where they ask you if you like your boss's wife.

But I can still voluntarily offer that information, as part of a narrative in response to the question.

A freeman who tries these tricks might get punished for contempt of court, but a noble who does this skillfully may have an easy time getting around the rules.

Alternately, lying without technically lying is a known skill. As long as you don't actually lie, you can often convince listeners to come to conclusions that are false, and neither Truthsayer or Compel Truth does anything to stop that. Cynical lawyers in Megalos are probably skilled at coaching their clients on how to answer questions truthfully, though getting around point blank questions like "did you kill the murder victim" is pretty tricky.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by khorboth

What for the gentry? Knights and burgesses, that sort of thing.
These people are automatically provided their own Truthsayer at the expense of the court. This means that it's quite expensive to have them questioned under such circumstances. Therefore, unless one is QUITE sure of the results, AND the crime is sufficient to be worth prosecuting, it's just not done. One doesn't wish to ruin one's career, after all.

I can't see the Megalos government paying up, even for gentry. It's just that they can pay for their own lawyers and mages, if they need to.

[khorboth]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I can't see the Megalos government paying up, even for gentry. It's just that they can pay for their own lawyers and mages, if they need to.

Fair point.

As a more global distinction, what if nobles (any rank) can be represented by others in court? Free people may represent themselves, but can consult council if they can afford it. Serfs may not speak unless directed todo so.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A criminal trial is not a setting where they ask you if you like your boss's wife.

Actually it would if she was the victim of a crime that you are accused of committing. ;-)