[DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Traits are not priced on how difficult it would be to get higher levels. The traits you do have are not priced according to the traits you don't have. For example, you don't get a discount on the DX if there's a racial limit on DX. And I don't think traits should be discounted because you have a higher training expense or whatever than someone else. That sounds like a feature to me.

From Basic 261:

"A 'taboo trait' is an attribute level, advantage, disadvantage, or skill that is off-limits to members of the race. This, too, is worth 0 points. Normally, only mundane traits are labeled 'taboo,' as exotic or supernatural traits require the GM’s permission in any case."

I'm sorry if you feel patronized, so I'll let it go with that.

I never said it was a Taboo Trait. He simply purchased a level of Magery acceptable for a 250 point Wizard at char gen.

These are just "training expenses" as per the optional rules for spending character points for advancement, and were not taken into consideration for the pricing of these traits.

Thank you.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

As I have been writing my design notes, one important question has come up. If RAW DF Wizard PCs cannot learn enchantment spells (which includes the Lich spell), how does a Lich PC exist to begin with? From the Bottom Up neglects to mention anything regarding this as far as I know. Shouldn’t the Lich’s character sheet reflect point investments reflecting having what was needed to attain lichdom? Seems unfair to make the player spend points on their character that serve no purpose past character creation though. I would not even think an Unusual Background should be required. However, the absence of it on the sheet ought to be explained in the background of the character. I am in favor of saying Oswald had the recipe for the elixir of lichdom, the Lich spell, and its prerequisites wiped from his memory. Oswald would rather not face competition from new liches, and rather than leave the secrets vulnerable to being pried from his mind with magic or interrogation, he used a Scroll of Great Wish to erase them from his memory permanently.

My inclination would be to simply state the method of becoming a Lich is a bit different for each person, and they need to do the necessary research themselves - they can't just have someone else brew up a "one size fit all" elixir and drink it. The time that went into the research is reflected simply by having the lich template. He could certainly use Teaching to help someone else gain lichdom, of course (having familiarity with the process helps), just as he could use it to teach them Tactics, HazMat, Lightning, or even Black Magic Magery (provided that's a learnable trait).

Originally Posted by Tymathee

Some meta-balance commentary...while I acknowledge that No Mana Zones are a totally valid means of hosing Wizards, my inner pouty player says it'd be more responsible of the GM to gatekeep spell selection at char gen and then only permit the more problematic spells (that would warrant the No Mana Zone) as they see fit. I know such zones are there for world building reasons, but its also a meta countermeasure against magic gone wild. Curb the spells, I say, then implement No Mana Zones if at all after that!

I'll note that - from what I understand - DF assumes No Mana Zones will be in play (as will places with Low Sanctity, and so forth), just as GURPS Magic did, and the spell lists were made with that in mind. If you don't include NMZ's, you're going to make mages more powerful than intended - not because of poor curation of available spells, but because the mechanics revolving around those spells assume NMZ's will be present as a balancing factor.

Originally Posted by Tymathee

Also, we need to take into consideration Oswald's Dead Broke Wealth level. He's going to need to sweet talk the party's designated Mr. Money Bags if he's even going to have the cash on hand to fund his magical serial killing endeavors, since DF's variation on the Wealth traits dictate your ability to sell off loot. Any loot he's going to try and sell... won't have any value, unless he hands it over to Mr. Money Bags to sell for him.

While I'm not thrilled with the way this works in DF, a decent solution here is for Mr Money Bags to charge Oswald, say 10% of whatever he gets out of the items. If Oswald finds a bit of treasure that MMB can sell for $1000, getting $900 for it instead of $0 is a win for Oswald (and a win for MMB, given he just made $100 just for serving as the middle man).

Originally Posted by Tymathee

"I don't know, Oswald... I'm just not sure if I'm comfortable with you murdering innocent villagers for the sake of more power!"

Sounds like somebody is in the wrong party.

[Tymathee]

@ Varyon:

Originally Posted by Tymathee

Stranger still, a party of PCs all with varying tastes in morals would be quite intriguing... a "Avengers assemble!" scale of impending doom where the heroes of Good and the villains of Evil must band together to even stand a chance against the threat of The Unthinkable Eldritch Horrors.

The hypothetical quote was actually a reference to this (from the first post). :^P

Nice thoughts on the lichdom! I detailed the steps for acquiring additional levels of his type of Magery in play with my worked example of "training expenses".

The NMZ complaint was just a petty quibble I made. :) I totally expect NMZs to be enforced as they should.

I figure Oswald would be needing to negotiate with the party's designated Mr. Money Bags. Conceptually I don't see a Lich (at least one without a established evil lair and treasure hoard with underworld blackmarket contacts) having the ability to sell off loot at any capacity with how Wealth is modeled in DF.

[Tymathee]

This is not addressed to anyone in particular but it is a PSA that needs to be communicated.

I think it needs to be made clear that I DO NOT have malicious intent with these implementation of rules and mechanics. Over the period of the past year or so that I've had this character in development, I've been as meticulous as I can be given my level of comprehension of GURPS and DF. I've spent years studying the material, and came to the progress I've made so far because of that. It is totally in bad taste to try and blindside the GM with malicious munchkinism, and I'm fully in favor of having good ethics in character generation.

Oswald amounts to a glass cannon, except that instead of combat prowess and damage potential he flexes his spell selection suite to the best he can manage. He's going to be highly dependent on the primary front liners for what defensive magic can't cover (hopefully someone takes the Sacrificial Parry perk, or is willing to perform a sacrificial dodge if they can tank hits), since he sacrificed melee competence to double down on magical prowess. DF ([stereo]typically) features a significant amount of combat, and I balanced Oswald with this in mind. His Magery is at a level that can be achieved by a regular Wizard at char gen, his access to energy is not of the same quality or likely amount of a regular Wizard, and his spell selection actively avoids the most brutal combination of spells a starting regular Wizard could have. Although his LER (BM) and Magery with the associated modifier are point balanced (I'm currently working on the details of that additional -20% that is supposed to be within LER (BM)), I've used my best judgement to suggest a highly recommended (and I'll absolutely insist on its usage) reflavoring/reworked version of the training expenses rules specifically for these traits. Oswald is a balanced character, but you must take the bigger picture into account.

I wish to not repeatedly have the more or less same arguments against these traits as has happened three times now already. If it is to be further discussed, please do so in a courteous manner. Thank you.

[Celjabba]

The character is obviously the result of many thoughts , both by itself and within the game world.
And it is certainly an interesting concept.
I approve on general principles.

It doesn't exactly follow the rules but if it work for your game, all is well. I certainly allowed things at my table many forum members would disagree with.

That said, if it was brought to my table with me as GM :

- the sig gear crystal ball normal price of 1000$ is not a problem. It cannot be abused, it fit the character, and for all we know he got a good deal on it. No problem there.

- the ER is a bit cheap as described but not overly so. 1.5 1.2 or 1 per level ... I could be convinced. Be ready for Weirdness Magnet to be brought up often however, with such a "trigger" in-story !

- the magery pricing, I would refuse, as I explained above. Full stop. I could see -25% given your justification, perhaps -30%. Definitely not -80%.
We shall have to disagree on that, I think.

- the lack of weapon skills is understandable and logical but run against DF expectations.... a dilemma there. Perhaps a winged knive ? Either the spell and a nice blade (a sacrificial knife would be fitting) or an actual enchanted item, but it would be expensive.

- as it is, it makes a good antagonist but lack a motivation to be part of an adventuring party - beyond gathering money and resources to improve itself ... which is justification enough in DF but I feel it lack something to bind someone with those disadvantages to an adventuring group.

Have fun !

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The character is obviously the result of many thoughts , both by itself and within the game world.
And it is certainly an interesting concept.
I approve on general principles.

It doesn't exactly follow the rules but if it work for your game, all is well. I certainly allowed things at my table many forum members would disagree with.

That said, if it was brought to my table with me as GM :

- the sig gear crystal ball normal price of 1000$ is not a problem. It cannot be abused, it fit the character, and for all we know he got a good deal on it. No problem there.

- the ER is a bit cheap as described but not overly so. 1.5 1.2 or 1 per level ... I could be convinced. Be ready for Weirdness Magnet to be brought up often however, with such a "trigger" in-story !

- the magery pricing, I would refuse. Full stop. I could see -25% given your justification, perhaps -30% or slightly more. Definitely not -80%.
We shall have to disagree on that, I think.

- the lack of weapon skills is understandable and logical but run against DF expectations.... a dilemma there. Perhaps a winged knive ? Either the spell or an actual enchanted item ?

- as it is, it makes a good antagonist but lack a motivation to be part of an adventuring party... something to consider.

Have fun !

Thanks, I appreciate your reply.

The $20 unenchanted crystal ball that allows Crystal-Gazing at no penalty is at its price to remain competitive with the $15 hand mirror that cannot be enchanted but provides Crystal-Gazing at no penalty according to the RAW. I've previously detailed potential workable alternatives in a previous post (as written, the Crystal-Gazing divination spell as well as the associated enchantment suffer from major rules crunch negligence) but this solution appears to be as good as any other more or less. A perk to cover basic equipment for a skill is a established idea already in GURPS.

The ER, as previously mentioned, is essentially going to be divorced entirely from the magic perk it originated from by replacing the inherent -20% "Pact" limitation baked into it because of the 1 to 20 magic perk to spells cap. I'm in the process of ironing out the precise details of that additional -20%. See a recent prior post for more context.

The -80% fully takes into consideration the RAW assumptions that DF makes, as well as the fact it is a far more limiting form of Cannot Use External Energy. I will make it imperative to communicate with the GM during Session Zero so that our expectations of RAW DF assumptions are on the same page. It has been previously discussed before by multiple people on this forum that within their gaming groups that players and GMs collaborate on world building decisions. This especially makes great sense with DF, with the massive amount of setting and world building assumptions it makes on behalf of the GM to expedite getting the players straight into the thick of dungeon crawling.

I intentionally choose to not entirely front-load all the abilities and skills onto my characters that go off-template and are built to concept, regardless of starting point total. Even 250 point DF characters need future hooks baked into their design to better incentivize further character advancement.

As for motivation, that's entirely campaign dependent IMHO. At the most basic level to be assumed, like any other stereotypical DF character he's in search of the loot and the power. With a more fleshed out campaign premise for context, like what I've detailed at the part of my original post, he could be a part of a mixed morality party that represents the best of the best in the land that has to to work together to stand any chance against the impending doom that is The Unthinkable Eldritch Horrors.

I really appreciate your time and consideration for the discussion at hand. Thank you!

[Tymathee]

As for Disadvantages putting him at odds with the rest of the adventuring party, he has Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions). His more monsterous traits may come in handy... occasionally. RAW says he can very well trigger Fright Checks given the right circumstances, and there's probably going to be the infrequent "Monster Town" where his looks won't look out of place. If someone has the ability to convincingly disguise him, he might be able to venture into more wholesome Towns unnoticed.

EDIT: This of course assumes a mixed morality party, as I've discussed somewhat already. No issue if it's a Suicide Squad-ish game, or it's a full on Evil party game. Individual Evil PCs/Evil Parties/Mixed Morality Parties can be played, the GM just has to be imaginative with the campaign premise. :)

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

I wish to not repeatedly have the more or less same arguments against these traits as has happened three times now already. If it is to be further discussed, please do so in a courteous manner. Thank you.

I suggest that the next time you get a comment or question that you've already responded to, you just give them a link to the previous post where you responded (or quote the post), possibly with the phrase 'asked and answered.'

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I suggest that the next time you get a comment or question that you've already responded to, you just give them a link to the previous post where you responded (or quote the post), possibly with the phrase 'asked and answered.'

Certainly! That's a good suggestion.

There was some variation with each forumite's responses though that genuinely required individualized attention, as the nature of their arguments against my design choices did differ. Most confusion was clarified by citing the RAW, or through as much civil reasoning and sound logic as I could muster. I'm not trying to be difficult, if anything I'm trying to maintain polite discussion. We're all here to learn from each other.

I guess my frustration arose from what I perceived to be responses that were reactionary and without full consideration of the actual implementation of rules and mechanics under the hood. Some of that was my fault for lack of transparency, and some of that wasn't my fault perhaps because I can't be cognizant of everything all the time necessarily. The good news is that all this feather ruffling has actually produced meaningful insight that I've been able to make use of. I'm not entirely immovable in my stances.

The Power Item rules for DF should not be so easily dismissed though. It's the Wizards hidden gem feature that I'm surprised people haven't taken more notice of. It's at least on par with Weapon Master or Heroic Archer, IMHO. You really need to be aware of the full implications of it. Really puts the quadratic Wizard in quadratic Wizard. Mo' money, mo' power, and isn't the biggest incentive for dungeon delvers that sweet cash?

[Tymathee]

Really, I think I need to put it into perspective just how impactful the Power Item, something the Wizard is guaranteed to have at char gen with just some starting cash invested into acquiring it. It's the best investment you'll ever make.

The more cash value of the item, the better. The more you delve, the better the items you can use as a Power Item or gems or whatever to add to the value of the Power Item you already have, and the more cash you have on hand to maintain the energy in it. For a paltry amount of cash, you can refill it.

Delving = More shiny loot and cash = More power = More delving = More shiny loot and cash...

So, perhaps more so than any other delver, Wizards can attain more power by doing what a delver is already supposed to be good at, all without spending a single character point.

Sure, the GM can have it destroyed, lost, or stolen, but the Wizard just snatches up the next most valuable shiny loot and turns it into a Power Item. Okay, so that's not a long lasting solution, why not bottleneck the flow of cash and loot to prevent the inevitably large reserve of energy in a highly valuable Power Item? Great, now you've achieved the extreme opposite of a Monty Haul and not only are you hosing the Wizard you're punishing the whole party along with them.

It's something that reaches critical mass the more you do exactly what you're expected to do in DF, delve dungeons and bash in monster brains for their cool loot, and has no clear preventative solution to it. Sure, it'll start small, but like a Wizard in DnD who embodies that "Quadratic Wizard, Linear Warrior" meme, it'll have a rapid snowball effect that's coming your way no matter what.

Kromm has stated before (at least I definitely recall this as so) that the true balancing factor in the GURPS Magic system is your access to energy. If I also recall correctly, he's pretty adamant about cash not becoming a solution crock. DF's Power Item rules totally throw all those sensibilities out the window and go full ham with the gonzo, with Wizards coming out top above all other 'caster professional templates in terms of making the most of it with their largely superior spell selection.

Among all other forms of energy that he doesn't get to use since he only gets to utilize his own harshly gimped Energy Reserve, the Power Item is the most exploitative in my eyes.

That was some nice commentary. Well, back to brainstorming that last bit of -20% for the LER (BM) I've been working on.