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Old 09-14-2019, 10:45 AM   #21
johndallman
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
There are two main problems with these kinds of questions. One is that none of us can agree on what the attributes equate to in real life. The other is what the limits for real people are.
One way to look at it is what the attributes let you do. That lead me to some ideas about attribute limits for different styles of game:
  • Really very ordinary people: young healthy people have 10s and the occasional 11; older and sick people have lower attributes.
  • Ordinary people, selected by attributes: Weightlifters selected by ST, professionals selected by IQ, baseball players selected by DX, runners selected for HT. 12 in the selected attribute, with occasional 13s.
  • Normal people, strongly selected by attribute: sports people who compete at national levels, special operations troops, nationally leading professionals in their field: 13 or 14.
  • “Cinematic realistic” games: the default GURPS mode, where characters can overcome extraordinary obstacles, but need to make plans, obtain appropriate equipment and use good tactics: 15 or 16.
  • “Highly cinematic” games: 20, because that really does stretch the plausible limits of being human.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:56 AM   #22
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The President of the USA is the Commander-in-Chief, which is a military title, so he (or she) possesses Military Rank. The Prime Minister of the UK is not the Commander-in-Chief on the UK military, that is legally the Queen, but she orders the military to obey the Prime Minister of the UK as her representative (an order she can give because she is the Commander-in-Chief). So, the President of the USA possesses Military Rank 8 and Political Rank 8, the Prime Minister of the UK possesses Courtesy Rank (Military) 8 and Political Rank 8, and the Queen of the UK possesses Courtesy Rank (Political) 8 and Military Rank 8.
Commander-in-chief is a military *function*, but it's not a rank.

*You can't get to be CinC by being promoted from general or admiral, at least if you're in a free country that doesn't have military juntas.

*You get to be CinC by winning an election. Military officers aren't elected.

*You don't have to have any military skills to be CinC. Elizabeth II might have Savoir-Faire (Military) but I don't see any evidence she has others; Barack Obama had none; I don't think Donald Trump has any.

*Civil supremacy is a basic principle of the U.S. constitution. That requires that orders to the military come from the civil government and that the civil government give permission for military operations, if only by declaring an emergency where the military has unusual powers. There is no official above the president to act as a civilian giving orders to the president as a military man.

*You cannot hold the position of CinC without being president, nor can the president NOT hold the position of CinC. But the president's powers include appointment of military officers.

The accurate way to describe this is to say that the president is CinC ex officio: It's one of the powers of their office, not an office or rank or position in its own right.
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:02 PM   #23
Kesendeja
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Why are you adjusting already low stats downward? It won't have much effect on humans; humans can't normally go below 6. But it creates problems for nonhumans.

* GURPS typically equates ST to HP. But there's an implicit correspondence between HP and weight (explicit for machines and masses of matter): HP = 2x (cube root of weight in pounds) (4x for machines; 8x for masses of matter). This gives 2 ounces for ST 1, 1 lb. for ST 2, 4 lbs. for ST 3, 8 lbs. for ST 4, 16 lbs. for ST 5, and 27 lbs. for ST 6. Are you going to make small animals a lot smaller? Or are you going to have no relation between weight and HP?

* GURPS treats IQ for nonhuman animals as a measure of species capability: 1 for (a lot of) invertebrates, 2 for reptiles, 3 for less smart mammals, 4 for smarter mammals such as wolves, 5 for monkeys and parrots, 6 for apes. You seem to be treating everything from a roach to a horse as equally lacking in intelligence, That seems too collapsed a scale.
Those were the prerequisite conversions.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:28 PM   #24
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by Kesendeja View Post
Those were the prerequisite conversions.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:07 PM   #25
Kesendeja
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

The old attribute numbers are those printed in the book as prerequisites, the new attribute numbers are what they would be in a system that caps at 16.
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Old 09-14-2019, 05:53 PM   #26
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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The old attribute numbers are those printed in the book as prerequisites, the new attribute numbers are what they would be in a system that caps at 16.
Okay, I thought that might be what you meant by "prerequisites." But I'm not clear on what they are prerequisites FOR. It doesn't seem to me that GURPS uses attributes as prerequisites, or not very much at any rate.

I'm still not seeing why you want to change the requirements involving attributes lower than 6. Why not just leave them as they are? Can you present a case where the current treatment produces unsatisfactory results?
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:02 PM   #27
Kesendeja
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Okay, I thought that might be what you meant by "prerequisites." But I'm not clear on what they are prerequisites FOR. It doesn't seem to me that GURPS uses attributes as prerequisites, or not very much at any rate.

I'm still not seeing why you want to change the requirements involving attributes lower than 6. Why not just leave them as they are? Can you present a case where the current treatment produces unsatisfactory results?
There have been a few cases where abilities in the newer books have called for prerequisites. In fact the abilities in the new Monster Hunters PDF is what sparked the conversation.

As for the attributes under 6 it probably won't hurt to leave them alone, have to actually get into a situation to test them, not many things have attributes under 6 anyway.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:23 PM   #28
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by Kesendeja View Post
I have a rather strange problem, I need to know what a normal character's attribute range would be for a game I'm running. I know 6 is the practical limit to a playable character in most cases, but how high up? The only chart I could find said 15+, but I need a bit more. What would you set the caps at?

Sorry if this has been covered before, I just couldn't find anything on it.
Some aspects of this this came up in the Highest point total IRL thread.

The "How to Select Basic Attributes" note box for the Basic Set has been converted into a table on the GURPS wiki

17 or 18 are "historical “bests” and remarkable fictional heroes" so that seems to be the upper limit for "real" people.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:42 PM   #29
maximara
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Commander-in-chief is a military *function*, but it's not a rank.

*You can't get to be CinC by being promoted from general or admiral, at least if you're in a free country that doesn't have military juntas.

*You get to be CinC by winning an election. Military officers aren't elected.

*You don't have to have any military skills to be CinC. Elizabeth II might have Savoir-Faire (Military) but I don't see any evidence she has others; Barack Obama had none; I don't think Donald Trump has any.

*Civil supremacy is a basic principle of the U.S. constitution. That requires that orders to the military come from the civil government and that the civil government give permission for military operations, if only by declaring an emergency where the military has unusual powers. There is no official above the president to act as a civilian giving orders to the president as a military man.

*You cannot hold the position of CinC without being president, nor can the president NOT hold the position of CinC. But the president's powers include appointment of military officers.

The accurate way to describe this is to say that the president is CinC ex officio: It's one of the powers of their office, not an office or rank or position in its own right.
The highest military rank ever given to an active military man was General of the Armies of the United States which formally is a Five Star General. Based on 3e the President would be Rank 9
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:45 PM   #30
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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*You don't have to have any military skills to be CinC. Elizabeth II might have Savoir-Faire (Military) but I don't see any evidence she has others; ...
She served as a mechanic and military truck driver in WWII. I assume she would have been given some sort of basic training even if she only drove trucks around Great Britain.
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