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Old 09-14-2019, 06:26 AM   #11
ericthered
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
I guess you want to use some powerups for DF or MH ?

Those are cinematic, not for mundane realistic humans.

I think you can lower the prerequisites, adjusting for your campaign cap.
expanding on the above comment, genre and play style matter. There are some games where the human maximum is higher or lower than others. Sometimes this is about cinematic humans, sometimes its just that the GM is a "stat-normalizer".
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:29 AM   #12
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Found another RAW reference:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Ups 2: Perks, page 21
Attributes: Special Exercises (DX), Special Exercises (IQ),
and Special Exercises (HT) come in levels, with each level let-
ting you exceed the racial norm in that score 20, for a human
by one.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

The RAW maximum is 20 (more for ST). Realistic games tend to cap out at a feasible maximum of 15 for DX, IQ, and HT (20 for ST) because they want to avoid cinematic results, not because such people do not exist in real life (there are some amazing outliers out there, such as an entire extended family with real life Unbreakable Bones, but such outliers would be avoided in a realistic game). When it comes to ST, exceptional ST values seem to exist, and you can go to the local gym and see people who easily break ST 15 without using Extra Effort (because they are lifting long past the point where they would collapse from FP loss if they were using Extra Effort).

Now, one way to address some of the discrepancies between ST and performance would be to have certain skills provide a static bonus to ST in limited circumstances. For example, Lifting should increase Lifting ST by one for every level above HT and Force Entry should increase Striking ST by one for every level above DX when attacking an inanimate object with a kick or impact weapon. You could even apply such bonuses to unarmed combat skills in lieu of the normal damage bonuses (or, for characters with Weapon Master, any impacted muscle-powered weapon).

In many ways though, realism depends on point value rather than any specific limits on attributes or skills. In the real world, point values tend to max out at around 400 CP, and the majority of people with point values above 300 CP tend to have lots of social attributes. For example, most of the Presidents of the USA probably possess Allies [40 CP], Contats [20 CP], Legal Immunity [10], Military Rank 8 [40], Political Rank 8 [40], Status 7 [0], and Wealth (Filty Rich) [50], so 200 CP of social advantages.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:43 AM   #14
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

There are two main problems with these kinds of questions. One is that none of us can agree on what the attributes equate to in real life. The other is what the limits for real people are.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesendeja View Post
Attributes
Old = New
1-3 = 1
4 = 2
5 = 4
6 = 6
Why are you adjusting already low stats downward? It won't have much effect on humans; humans can't normally go below 6. But it creates problems for nonhumans.

* GURPS typically equates ST to HP. But there's an implicit correspondence between HP and weight (explicit for machines and masses of matter): HP = 2x (cube root of weight in pounds) (4x for machines; 8x for masses of matter). This gives 2 ounces for ST 1, 1 lb. for ST 2, 4 lbs. for ST 3, 8 lbs. for ST 4, 16 lbs. for ST 5, and 27 lbs. for ST 6. Are you going to make small animals a lot smaller? Or are you going to have no relation between weight and HP?

* GURPS treats IQ for nonhuman animals as a measure of species capability: 1 for (a lot of) invertebrates, 2 for reptiles, 3 for less smart mammals, 4 for smarter mammals such as wolves, 5 for monkeys and parrots, 6 for apes. You seem to be treating everything from a roach to a horse as equally lacking in intelligence, That seems too collapsed a scale.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:00 AM   #16
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In many ways though, realism depends on point value rather than any specific limits on attributes or skills. In the real world, point values tend to max out at around 400 CP, and the majority of people with point values above 300 CP tend to have lots of social attributes. For example, most of the Presidents of the USA probably possess Allies [40 CP], Contats [20 CP], Legal Immunity [10], Military Rank 8 [40], Political Rank 8 [40], Status 7 [0], and Wealth (Filty Rich) [50], so 200 CP of social advantages.
Some of this last bit should be ignored. You can't be active duty military and be the president of the US. Some presidents may have Courtesy Military Rank, such as Dwight Eisenhower; some have no Military Rank, such as Barack Obama.

What the president has is something like Status 7 and Political Rank 7. If you assume Filthy Rich, Status 7 costs 20 points. Serving military officers with Military Rank 8 report to him, not because he's part of the military, but because the US has civilian supremacy. (Among other things, having the trait of Political or Feudal Rank avoids the incongruity of a 40-point general taking orders from a 35-point president or king.)

Alexander is telling you what he thinks the rules ought to be. Even if you ignore the rules published in Social Engineering (which is where my treatment comes from; and you're entirely free to ignore any supplement), there is nothing in the Basic Set to justify his assumptions (also, note that Political Rank DOES come from SE, but he's not using it as SE does).

In particular, the Basic Set does NOT say that orders can only come from within the Rank hierarchy.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:10 AM   #17
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

A GURPS stat of 20 is not realistic at all - someone with a stat at 20 would be an expert in nearly all skills that default to that stat, which is absurd.

For a benchmark, I tell my players that every +/- 1 is basically one standard deviation away from the average score of 10. A stat of 11 is the 84 percentile, a stat of 12 is the 98 percentile, a stat of 13 is the 99.9 percentile, and so forth. I set 15 as absolute peak human, 16-17 is low superhuman, 18-19 is moderate superhuman, and 20+ is high superhuman. I realize everyone's GURPS is slightly different, I find this keeps characters from being unbalancing and helps to put their stats in relation to each other in a way that can quickly visualized.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:44 AM   #18
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesendeja View Post
Okay, I originally sat the caps at 15, with 16 being available with unusual background.

Now several PDFs have come out with advantages that work well in concept with the world and characters, only problem is they have prerequisites higher than I originally allowed attributes to get to.

Without changing the caps, any idea how I would go about adjusting things?
Advantages like...what?
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:00 AM   #19
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

The President of the USA is the Commander-in-Chief, which is a military title, so he (or she) possesses Military Rank. The Prime Minister of the UK is not the Commander-in-Chief on the UK military, that is legally the Queen, but she orders the military to obey the Prime Minister of the UK as her representative (an order she can give because she is the Commander-in-Chief). So, the President of the USA possesses Military Rank 8 and Political Rank 8, the Prime Minister of the UK possesses Courtesy Rank (Military) 8 and Political Rank 8, and the Queen of the UK possesses Courtesy Rank (Political) 8 and Military Rank 8.
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:17 AM   #20
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
There are two main problems with these kinds of questions. One is that none of us can agree on what the attributes equate to in real life. The other is what the limits for real people are.
Exactly this.
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