TK-assisted punching and Limited Use

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Only if you took it with the Multi-Strike enhancement. Otherwise, with Extra Attack you need to attack with two different attacks (fist and foot, claw and bite, whatever), which Telekinesis would make impossible, since if you're attacking with TK, you can't attack with anything else.

Given that vanilla TK is defined as acting like two hands, I'd think one level of Extra Attack would be fine without Multi-Strike. After all, the same advantage lets you strike once with each real fist, doesn't it?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Given that vanilla TK is defined as acting like two hands, I'd think one level of Extra Attack would be fine without Multi-Strike.

It only acts like two hands when you're manipulating something, though, I think (oh god, I just started this thread again, didn't I?). By default, you can only punch once per turn with TK. Similarly, I don't think you can do a Dual-Weapon Attack with your TK to get two TK punches.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

It only acts like two hands when you're manipulating something, though, I think (oh god, I just started this thread again, didn't I?). By default, you can only punch once per turn with TK. Similarly, I don't think you can do a Dual-Weapon Attack with your TK to get two TK punches.

I can see your argument. Guess that just leaves Rapid Strike, then. Now, do you get to halve that -6 penalty if you've got Trained By A Master, or Weapon Master applicable to a weapon you're wielding with TK? Can you All-Out Attack (Double), sacrificing any parries you might have otherwise made using a weapon with your TK? If so, does that mean you could do the same with 'TK punches' not involving a physical weapon, and does that in turn imply you can parry with your TK without first picking up an object to interpose between you and attacks?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Guess that just leaves Rapid Strike, then.

Rapid Strike would definitely be viable, yes.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Now, do you get to halve that -6 penalty if you've got Trained By A Master, or Weapon Master applicable to a weapon you're wielding with TK?

Sounds reasonable.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Can you All-Out Attack (Double), sacrificing any parries you might have otherwise made using a weapon with your TK?

I'm still skeptical of All-Out Attack with TK. I think the only way I'd allow it is if it meant that the telekinetic was effectively taking an "All-Out Concentrate" action, that denied them their defenses. I don't think losing the TK parry is enough of a drawback for doing an All-Out Attack if the telekinetic themselves can still dodge - even if dodging does risk breaking the concentration.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

and does that in turn imply you can parry with your TK without first picking up an object to interpose between you and attacks?

I'd allow you to do an unarmed parry with TK, sure.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I'm still skeptical of All-Out Attack with TK. I think the only way I'd allow it is if it meant that the telekinetic was effectively taking an "All-Out Concentrate" action, that denied them their defenses. I don't think losing the TK parry is enough of a drawback for doing an All-Out Attack if the telekinetic themselves can still dodge - even if dodging does risk breaking the concentration.

Even if, for example, you were using the TK to handle a two-handed sword between you and your opponents? It seems like giving up the sword's ability to parry attacks coming your way would be worth the bonuses attendant on an AoA.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Even if, for example, you were using the TK to handle a two-handed sword between you and your opponents? It seems like giving up the sword's ability to parry attacks coming your way would be worth the bonuses attendant on an AoA.

But you'd still get the regular dodge. That's what seems unbalanced to me - the idea that your TK can take an All-Out Attack, and somehow still leave you with defenses. Heck, by that logic, a telekinetic with, say, Broadsword 20 could always make sure to hold a broadsword in their hand, plus "hold" on with TK, and just concentrate on All-Out Attacking with their TK, secure in the knowledge that they'd get a healthy parry with the broadsword in their hand if anyone attacked them. I don't think that works.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

But you'd still get the regular dodge. That's what seems unbalanced to me - the idea that your TK can take an All-Out Attack, and somehow still leave you with defenses. Heck, by that logic, a telekinetic with, say, Broadsword 20 could always make sure to hold a broadsword in their hand, plus "hold" on with TK, and just concentrate on All-Out Attacking with their TK, secure in the knowledge that they'd get a healthy parry with the broadsword in their hand if anyone attacked them. I don't think that works.

Well, still getting the dodge is somewhat balanced by the fact that most characters are likely to lose that Will-3 roll to continue Concentrating, and most GMs wouldn't let you be manipulating the same object with both your TK and your hands (except maybe very slowly), so the broadsword example may be moot. Still, it would probably be simplest to say that if you allow TK to take an All-Out Attack option, your Concentrate maneuver becomes an All-Out Concentrate as well, allowing no TK or personal defenses. That seems fair enough. You could still have DR representing a 'static' PK shield, of course.

On the original poster's topic, I think that Striking ST, or Striking ST (One Attack), is perfectly viable both as a PK ability, and as an Alternative Attack to your TK ability. The fact that you can't Concentrate on TK and punch somebody at the same time anyway (at least without Compartmentalized Mind) no more disqualifies it as an AA than the fact that you normally can't throw two Innate Attacks or Afflictions in the same turn disqualifies them from being AAs of each other.