Multiple Insubstantial Planes

AlexanderHowl · 01-11-2021, 11:07 AM

In some settings, there are multiple spirit worlds whose fringes overlap with the material world. For example, oWoD possesses spiritual fringes associated with the Dreaming, the High Umbra, the Middle Umbra, and the Low Umbra, and the entities in those fringes are usually incapable of interacting with other fringes, as they are as insubstantial and invisible to each other as they are to the material world. It any case, inhabitants of one spiritual world find it nearly impossible to travel to another spirit world.

I was wondering how you would represent different types of overlapping spirit worlds? I was thinking that would need different types of Affects Insubstantial, Insubstantiality, Invisibility, and See Invisible. For example, a spirit could have Insubstantiality (X Fringe; Always On, -50%) [40] and Invisibility (X Fringe; Affects Machines, +50%) [60], which would represent a basic spirit of X Fringe. They would be undetectable without See Invisible (X Fringe) [15] and beings not native to its spiritual home would need Affects Insubstantial (X Fringe) (+20%) to hit it.

Refplace · 01-11-2021, 11:21 AM

Sounds about right. GURPS has several planes and uses a few different nameing conventions with overlapping or partly ovelapping meaning. But mainly different Interpenetrating planes can and orobably should be treaed as dfferent forms of Insubstantiality.

Daigoro · 01-11-2021, 07:29 PM

I would lean toward it being different properties of the planes, not of the PC.

AlexanderHowl · 01-11-2021, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I would lean toward it being different properties of the planes, not of the PC.

What do you mean?

Daigoro · 01-12-2021, 06:37 PM

A character only needs Jumper (Planar). When they arrive on the Spirit Plane, then they become Insubstantial and Invisible to people in the Real World, as those are the properties innate to the Spirit Plane. Real World peeps would need See Invisible (Spirit) to interact with them.

AlexanderHowl · 01-12-2021, 07:44 PM

Not really. When an individual travels to another plane with Jumper (Planer), they are separate from other planes, not insubstantial and invisible to entities of other planes (you cannot hit them with Affects Insubstantial or see them with See Invisible). Now, an individual with Jumper (Plane) could probably justify having Insubstantiality and Invisibility as alternative abilities of Jumper (Plane), but it is something separate that they pay for.

Daigoro · 01-12-2021, 08:02 PM

You might need to explain how you see different planes working then. To me, someone on the Spirit Plane, adjacent to the Real World, can interact with the spirits and ghosts there as real people, can see into the Real World, but is invisible to the Real World unless someone has Spirit sensing powers.

If your campaign setting has many different layers of reality, it'd be easier to apply such properties to those layers rather than their inhabitants.

AlexanderHowl · 01-12-2021, 10:20 PM

That would be what would be considered the fringe, an overlapping of the spiritual plane and the material plane. In Shadowrun, this would be considered the Astral Plane while the other planes are the Metaplanes. In Psionic Powers, this is the Inner Astral Plane while the spiritual plane is the Outer Astral Plane.

Prince Charon · 01-13-2021, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

That would be what would be considered the fringe, an overlapping of the spiritual plane and the material plane. In Shadowrun, this would be considered the Astral Plane while the other planes are the Metaplanes. In Psionic Powers, this is the Inner Astral Plane while the spiritual plane is the Outer Astral Plane.

If I'm reading you correctly, you've got it backwards: The Outer Astral Plane ('The Astral Plane' text box on p27) is the one that you can see into the physical world from. The Inner Astral Plane (text box on p28) is the one that's a separate 'dimension.'

AlexanderHowl · 01-13-2021, 07:34 AM

Sorry, I always get those two flipped around. The point is that there are ethereal planes that overlap with the material plane (and/or spiritual plane) and spiritual planes that do not. Individuals in the material plane can interact with entities of the ethereal planes with the right abilities while they usually have to travel to the spiritual planes (or create a portal) to interact with entities of the spiritual plane.

For example, in Changeling: The Dreaming, chimerical reality would be the ethereal plane while the Dreaming would be the spiritual planes. Changelings (and enchanted objects/people) can interact with chimerical reality (and it can interact with them), but chimerical reality is insubstantial and invisible to the vast majority of the entities in banal reality. When it comes to the Dreaming though, they have to physically travel to the Dreaming.

There are actually three levels of the Dreaming: Near, Far, and Deep, meaning that the Dreams is three interconnected universes, and it gets progressively more insane and wonderful the further you do from banal reality. The Dreaming is also alive and, in some alien fashion, sapient, and is capable of modifying banal reality to protect its secrets through using the Mists. The Mists usually just modify the memories of people, but they will sometimes just swallow someone whole and deposit them in the Dreaming, where they will do no harm.

In any case, individuals who take Jumper (Spiritual) do not usually become insubstantial and/or invisible to the material world when they jump, they are literally in a different world. If they want to become insubstantial and/or invisible, they should just purchase Insubstantiality and/or Invisibility. Of course, that depends on the metaphysics of the setting, but the ethereal planes are generally not something that people jump into but, instead, project into.

01-11-2021, 11:07 AM	#1
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Multiple Insubstantial Planes In some settings, there are multiple spirit worlds whose fringes overlap with the material world. For example, oWoD possesses spiritual fringes associated with the Dreaming, the High Umbra, the Middle Umbra, and the Low Umbra, and the entities in those fringes are usually incapable of interacting with other fringes, as they are as insubstantial and invisible to each other as they are to the material world. It any case, inhabitants of one spiritual world find it nearly impossible to travel to another spirit world. I was wondering how you would represent different types of overlapping spirit worlds? I was thinking that would need different types of Affects Insubstantial, Insubstantiality, Invisibility, and See Invisible. For example, a spirit could have Insubstantiality (X Fringe; Always On, -50%) [40] and Invisibility (X Fringe; Affects Machines, +50%) [60], which would represent a basic spirit of X Fringe. They would be undetectable without See Invisible (X Fringe) [15] and beings not native to its spiritual home would need Affects Insubstantial (X Fringe) (+20%) to hit it.

01-11-2021, 11:21 AM	#2
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: Multiple Insubstantial Planes Sounds about right. GURPS has several planes and uses a few different nameing conventions with overlapping or partly ovelapping meaning. But mainly different Interpenetrating planes can and orobably should be treaed as dfferent forms of Insubstantiality. __________________ My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more! My GURPS fan contribution and blog: REFPLace GURPS Landing Page My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items) My GURPS Wiki entries

01-11-2021, 07:29 PM	#3
Daigoro Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Meifumado	Re: Multiple Insubstantial Planes I would lean toward it being different properties of the planes, not of the PC. __________________ Collaborative Settings: Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting!

01-12-2021, 06:37 PM	#5
Daigoro Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Meifumado	Re: Multiple Insubstantial Planes A character only needs Jumper (Planar). When they arrive on the Spirit Plane, then they become Insubstantial and Invisible to people in the Real World, as those are the properties innate to the Spirit Plane. Real World peeps would need See Invisible (Spirit) to interact with them. __________________ Collaborative Settings: Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting!

01-12-2021, 07:44 PM	#6
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Multiple Insubstantial Planes Not really. When an individual travels to another plane with Jumper (Planer), they are separate from other planes, not insubstantial and invisible to entities of other planes (you cannot hit them with Affects Insubstantial or see them with See Invisible). Now, an individual with Jumper (Plane) could probably justify having Insubstantiality and Invisibility as alternative abilities of Jumper (Plane), but it is something separate that they pay for.

01-12-2021, 08:02 PM	#7
Daigoro Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Meifumado	Re: Multiple Insubstantial Planes You might need to explain how you see different planes working then. To me, someone on the Spirit Plane, adjacent to the Real World, can interact with the spirits and ghosts there as real people, can see into the Real World, but is invisible to the Real World unless someone has Spirit sensing powers. If your campaign setting has many different layers of reality, it'd be easier to apply such properties to those layers rather than their inhabitants. __________________ Collaborative Settings: Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting! Last edited by Daigoro; 01-12-2021 at 08:13 PM.

01-12-2021, 10:20 PM	#8
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Multiple Insubstantial Planes That would be what would be considered the fringe, an overlapping of the spiritual plane and the material plane. In Shadowrun, this would be considered the Astral Plane while the other planes are the Metaplanes. In Psionic Powers, this is the Inner Astral Plane while the spiritual plane is the Outer Astral Plane.

01-13-2021, 07:34 AM	#10
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Multiple Insubstantial Planes Sorry, I always get those two flipped around. The point is that there are ethereal planes that overlap with the material plane (and/or spiritual plane) and spiritual planes that do not. Individuals in the material plane can interact with entities of the ethereal planes with the right abilities while they usually have to travel to the spiritual planes (or create a portal) to interact with entities of the spiritual plane. For example, in Changeling: The Dreaming, chimerical reality would be the ethereal plane while the Dreaming would be the spiritual planes. Changelings (and enchanted objects/people) can interact with chimerical reality (and it can interact with them), but chimerical reality is insubstantial and invisible to the vast majority of the entities in banal reality. When it comes to the Dreaming though, they have to physically travel to the Dreaming. There are actually three levels of the Dreaming: Near, Far, and Deep, meaning that the Dreams is three interconnected universes, and it gets progressively more insane and wonderful the further you do from banal reality. The Dreaming is also alive and, in some alien fashion, sapient, and is capable of modifying banal reality to protect its secrets through using the Mists. The Mists usually just modify the memories of people, but they will sometimes just swallow someone whole and deposit them in the Dreaming, where they will do no harm. In any case, individuals who take Jumper (Spiritual) do not usually become insubstantial and/or invisible to the material world when they jump, they are literally in a different world. If they want to become insubstantial and/or invisible, they should just purchase Insubstantiality and/or Invisibility. Of course, that depends on the metaphysics of the setting, but the ethereal planes are generally not something that people jump into but, instead, project into.