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Old 08-18-2020, 11:06 AM   #31
JulianLW
 
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
I did. The more I read the quote, the less sense it makes, even in context... which suggests it is being used wrong in this discussion, that I don't understand what it is saying (even in context), or both.

Where do you draw the line between something "inconveniencing" you and something simply not providing additional advantage?

Some Physical Advantages, by default are:
  • Obviously visible
  • Imperceptible
  • Visible, but not obviously so
I honestly don't see how anything in that thread leads to ambiguity about the visibility of DR. Where's your confusion coming from? I really can't find anything in that thread that complicates this issue - only a perfectly clear rules clarification: DR is, by default, unrelated to appearance. Kromm says it is "always on" and has "no appearance issues." The phrase "never inconveniences you" is from B34, the section on "Turning Advantages Off and On." That's why he used that phrase.

The question is clearly NOT "Where do you draw the line between something 'inconveniencing' you and something simply not providing additional advantage?"

DR being invisible is not an "additional advantage." But if it were visible, that would be an additional DISADVANTAGE. If it weren't a disadvantage, then there would be no need for an enhancement (no signature) to mitigate it. So the default assumption, as Kromm makes totally clear, is that DR is not visible.

It's also worth noting that Kromm has repeatedly expressed his reluctance (increasing in the last few years, clearly, as a result of the excessive rules-parsing you see on the forums of exactly the kind we're engaging in) to weigh in on these kinds of issues; I recall him saying that often, even when he's weighed in and made things clear (as he's done in this case), people continue to disagree.... So he finds it kind of pointless to engage, which I can totally understand.

This is, again, one of those basic issues of "your game, your interpretation of the rules." But if you want the GURPS RAW, DR is not visible unless there's a limitation of some kind that makes it so.

Every case of a "Low Signature" or "No Signature" enhancement on DR in published GURPS material includes such a limitation or an indication that the signature being mitigated relates to actually being hit, which is the only way to detect DR, by striking it. In the case of the Monster Hunters DR cases in question, it seems clear that the fluff text is saying it looks like you got hit normally, not like somebody just punched a wooden board, or that nobody can detect your demonic resilience or your nanotech bioenhanced skin just by looking at it.

Last edited by JulianLW; 08-18-2020 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 08-18-2020, 12:31 PM   #32
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
And you will be if you aren't making a glass cannon. Large amounts of DR is expensive.
I don't think 'glass cannon' is a good term for people who are 'merely' packing DR 20 and thus immune to many small arms and basically any non-super muscle-powered attack.
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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
It corresponds to "durable out of proportion to mass, but not actually invulnerable". You can use it to model things like compartmentalization in warships.
I don't see how it would be appropriate for compartmentalization in warships. For the most part that's just Resistance to Bleeding, since canonically flooding is modeled as bleeding. Unarmored compartment bulkheads do very little to reduce the 'wound channels' from the weapons that warships are concerned about.
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Old 08-18-2020, 01:36 PM   #33
Plane
 
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Kromm says it is "always on" and has "no appearance issues."
Latter is a paraphrase attempt though. The full quote is "It has no crippling bulk or appearance issues" so the adjective "crippling" could potentially apply to appearance too, ie "no crippling appearance issues"

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
The phrase "never inconveniences you" is from B34, the section on "Turning Advantages Off and On." That's why he used that phrase.
DR is not a listed example in that paragraph though, and there are three criteria mentioned:

1) never inconveniences (intuition)
2) has to be on at all times to be of benefit (resistant)
3) reflects a permanent trait of your species (extra arms)
Fitting one criterion doesn't mean fitting the others: extra arms COULD be inconvenient (people with Kintarophobia, no holes/arms in available sweaters) and resistant is not a permanent trait of the human species.

DR could also be seen as a permanent trait of a species, which means that could be why it is always on by default, rather than being always-convenient. Common sense rules inconvenience out since it prevents getting helpful innoculations or blood tests.

Also: we shouldn't be too literal about B34:

1) Intuition CAN be inconvenient for example ("on a critical failure, he steers you toward a bad choice)
2) it's entirely possible for Resistant to be beneficial without being on at all times (ie Resistant to Psionics with Maximum Duration of 1 minute that you activate when you know you will face psychics).
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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
DR being invisible is not an "additional advantage."
But if it were visible, that would be an additional DISADVANTAGE.
Even if we assume DR was invisible by default as a passive ability, Powers' discussion of how active abilities are sensed by mundane senses seems like it would make it perceivable even if it normally wasn't.

Which makes it strange that the PAWS force fields can take Visible, since that sounds like the logical go-to sense for active ability detection.

If active DR isn't visible by default then I guess you can "perceive it by touch" by default, which makes sense in the case of force fields since you would feel some bubble some distance from the user. NOT taking that would actually be pretty weird since it would be some kind of "I have an effect protecting me and my gear from damage but you can't perceive it by touch"

That could make sense with a Flexible Force Field (you can't combine Force Field with Tough Skin though) so if for example you were wearing fine silks, people could enjoy the texture, while the silks are still protected by damage.

DR as an active ability using "perceived by touch" would necessitate that you could no longer feel the fine silk basically, you'd feel some weird non-silk texture even if it was an otherwise non-AE skintight forcefield which prevented wearing armor.

People who wanted to avoid that could choose "perceived by sight" (prohibiting taking the Visible -10% limitation) or maybe something else like "perceived by smell/taste" (kinda weird though)

DR without modifiers is passive (not active) though, which does make it seem like there is no inherent "perceived by the five senses" requirement like active DR would have.

Which probably means some animal racial templates should be tweaked somehow. Whether that's something like applying Visible -10% or "Reputation: those things that look like armor plates on the turtle's back are well known to be armor and many intelligent animals remember that and try to attack the limbs or head instead of the torso"

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
If it weren't a disadvantage, then there would be no need for an enhancement (no signature) to mitigate it. So the default assumption, as Kromm makes totally clear, is that DR is not visible.
I don't buy that Kromm means there's absolutely no disadvantages to always-on DR as operates at baseline though, because there are situations (mostly with humans) where you WANT to be hurt (donating blood, getting an important blood test, getting a vaccine, passing as a weakling, showing your blood is not green, feeding your vampire buddy, initiating a berserker rage, masochistic self-harm)

Plus since DR is rigid by default, you also might want to avoid people hurting themselves when they hit you. It could be inconvenience to have people breaking their hands on your "invisible carapace" if you care about them or want to seem normal. Flexible DR is more useful than default rigid DR in cases like that, and is sometimes-useful in the way that certain limitations could be (mostly for RP) where "use limitation at will instead of turning off the entire ability" is better than either baseline operations or switchable baseline.

There is definitely some reduction in freedoms for DR that is not switchable, however obscure the situations are that demand such freedom. So 'never inconveniences' is not applicable (and it's not even applicable to the example given of Intuition: crit fails ARE inconvenient). I would read that either as "never inconveniences in everyday situations" or "rarely inconveniences" when taking into account unusual situations.

I do think Kromm at LEAST communicated "no crippling appearance issues" so I take it to mean "no reaction penalties in usual situations" (falls below the threshold of Unattractive) but you could in theory have "non-crippling appearance issues" of DR which add up to some kind of zero-point feature.

B22 "Unnatural Features" is a leveled quirk which is enough to give penalties to disguise/shadowing. That probably makes sense for a lot of humans with always-on DR who visibly look tougher. A turtle/bear would not need to take it though since that is "usual for their race".

Even if they did look weird I'd be hesitant to give it to ALL animals unless those animals were social ones like us. Penalties to Disguise/Shadowing or bonuses to others' Observation/Shadowing don't really seem relevant for solitary animals.

One thing we should consider is that even though you wouldn't give a bear "Unnatural Features" for "it looks like a bear", a HUMAN who looks like a bear would definitely have it, and a bear would probably be very difficult to disguise as a human, have difficulty shadowing humans, and it would be easy to pick apart from humans in a crowd for Observing/Shadowing them.

UF is weird because it pertains to how you look compared to just your species/community but doesn't reflect penalties regarding fitting into OTHER communities...

Xing La on B323 for example has two: Lambant Eyes and Bony Teeth. Lambant = "gleaming" per the 3rd line (Appearance) of B323 while preceding page:
probably has some water-rat DNA in her; her eyes are red, and her teeth aren’t quite right.
"gleaming red" is apparently just -1 and not "glowing red" since B118 assigns it a 5-point value
B118 is weird though, it implies taking "Affects Insubstantial" on Nightvision lets you see ghosts... what about See Invisible?
"bony" teeth doesn't make sense to me (teeth aren't bone but they're certainly bonesque in appearance) so I'm just going to assume "ratlike teeth" meaning they're longer/wider/thicker like a rat. Using "bony" to describe that is strange, that's often a synonym for "thin" (which Xing La ALSO is, I wish GURPS would ditch the term 'skinny', if you don't want 'thin' then 'slender' is still better: a Lich doesn't even have skin, 'skinny' is offensive! Plus Very Fat people have more skin than thin people)
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Old 08-18-2020, 01:37 PM   #34
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Every case of a "Low Signature" or "No Signature" enhancement on DR in published GURPS material includes such a limitation or an indication that the signature being mitigated relates to actually being hit, which is the only way to detect DR, by striking it.
Unless you take 1 HP as a result of "Hurting Yourself" on rigid DR (which can be avoided with the Flexible limitation: sometimes a benefit if you don't want people punching you to hurt themself!) are we sure non-active DR is tangible though?

The perk for Unkillable (I think "No Visible Injury"?) does seem to imply that showing HP loss is automatic (though I imagine it could require a Vision check, and that clothing/armor could hide it)

The problem though is "I perceive the foe who just got punched did not appear to be injured via a loss of 1 or more HP" doesn't necessarily mean "thus I know t'was DR that prevented this" since there are crushing attacks that just do 0 damage.

Even for other damage types (which have a minimum Basic Damage of 1) a lack of injury from a hit isn't a guarantee of DR either: because if such attacks have an "Armor Multiplier 2" limitation (-30%), then this gives an effective DR of 1 to creatures with DR 0
(I would say to treat that as normal DR though, meaning this does not apply when using AM-limited attacks to the eyes... whether it's flexible/rigid doesn't really matter since it's less than 5 so blunt trauma isn't an issue, and less than 3 so Hurting Yourself isn't an issue)
That said, one might have more awareness of one's own attack capabilities than of other's. You can be confident for example "my attack has no armor multiplier" therefore if you use a non-crushing attack on someone and they have no visible injury, that they must have DR.

Furthermore, if you are able to do a crushing attack where basic damage is ALWAYS more than zero (example: your ST gives you 1d-4 thrust and you are doing SpringingAttack+AOAstrong for a +4 bonus to damage) then a lack of visible injury should indicate to you that the foe has DR as the only explanation of why they were injured.

This of course, also requires perceiving that your hit actually landed and you made contact with the enemy. Normally you can do that via your skin's proprioception even if you can't see the hit land (example: you're blind, it's pitchblack, or you're doing a wild swing at a foe in a rear hex) however B146 Numb would create serious problems with it.

Sans-numb though, without visual feedback AT TIME OF STRIKING, you might just know "I punched something" rather than "I know who I punched" or "I know which part of that person I punched".

This should make post-punch visual assessments (ie the lights came on, you're scanning your foe for an injury you hoped to inflict upon him) more complicated. If for example you were using Random Hit Locations (as a Wild Swing is wont to do) then you won't know to look for a bruise (indicating HP loss) on their face, chest, foot, groin, backside, etc.

Failure to find the injury also might not be seen as immediate evidence of "they avoided the injury via DR". People might explain it away in other ways:

1) "I just don't have confidence in my perceptive abilities, perhaps I overlooked it"

2) "I have moderate confidence in my perceptive abilties, I'm sure I could detect a BIG bruise, but the 1 damage I'm confident my attack inflicted might be such a minor bruise that it's just difficult too difficult to perceive"

3) maybe I bruised them but prior to the lights coming back on, they magically healed themselves because they are a wizard. SOMETHING may be off, but maybe it wasn't DR

4) maybe I had a visual hallucination of hitting my foe in the heat of the moment when my brain was deprived of oxygen during the fight, maybe I actually just punched a wall

5) maybe I correctly remembered hitting my foe with the force of an attack I know from experience does 1 Basic Damage, but my memory of hitting him in the face as I intended is slightly mistaken: perhaps I actually hit him in the skull, which I know all humans have 2 DR in, so nothing would be amiss at him not suffering an injury as a result of it

6) as above, but "I thought I kicked him in the back, but maybe I slightly misremembered actually kicked him in the spine, which I know from experience has 3 DR
Examining people for injuries can take time (it's not instantaneous) and stuff like "Time Spent" for skills like First Aid would probably apply for such a thing. That's time in which you might rationalize explanations for why you might have accomplished an injury but it's no longer visible by the time you went to look for it, even if it's too soon for the 24 hours HT roll to recover 1 HP that people get (recovering 1 HP per 12 hours is Exotic, the first level of Regeneration, you might figure something is off)

The "disguise" skill could be one such explanation (applying foundation to cover bruises) if for example someone you thought you injured wasn't under direct observation the entire time after you thought you punched them.

Or maybe you suspect they're using sleight of hand or seduction to distract you from looking at certain body parts. You might question "did I actually give adequate time examining this woman's forearm for bruises, or did I possibly not get my maximum +5 bonus for taking x30 Time Spent on that particular body part because I prematurely looked away at her chest?"
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Old 08-18-2020, 02:36 PM   #35
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
I honestly don't see how anything in that thread leads to ambiguity about the visibility of DR.
Then, with all due respect, maybe it is unwise for you to attempt to directly answer my questions? I'm okay with you saying what you just said, and you leaving it at that. Maybe deep down I get it, and I'm just being stubborn. Maybe I'm truly so lost on this issue that no one can explain it in a manner where I'll grasp it.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Where's your confusion coming from?
Pretty sure I've explained where it is coming from, so either you missed it, or perhaps the gap between your understanding and my lack of understanding is so great that it just makes no sense to you?

I keep reading and re-reading what terms mean, and I'm still struggling to process it... at least, when I can allow myself time to try. ;)

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
The question is clearly NOT "Where do you draw the line between something 'inconveniencing' you and something simply not providing additional advantage?"
Which pretty much guarantees at least one of us just isn't getting what the other is saying. I'll even acknowledge it is more likely I am the one who is mistaken... but that also means we're already at an impasse. I try to read the rest of what you're writing, and it just makes things more confusing, not less.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
It's also worth noting that Kromm has repeatedly expressed his reluctance (increasing in the last few years, clearly, as a result of the excessive rules-parsing you see on the forums of exactly the kind we're engaging in) to weigh in on these kinds of issues; I recall him saying that often, even when he's weighed in and made things clear (as he's done in this case), people continue to disagree.... So he finds it kind of pointless to engage, which I can totally understand.
Did I demand Kromm weigh in?

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
This is, again, one of those basic issues of "your game, your interpretation of the rules." But if you want the GURPS RAW, DR is not visible unless there's a limitation of some kind that makes it so.
Whichever, if either of us, is correct, it isn't like we cannot just run our own games how we wish, or seek out GM's who will run games as we wish. The GURPS police won't ban you from the forums, let alone bust down the door while you're gaming and take you to GURPS Prison. XD

I was going to say so earlier, but I didn't think I needed to. Guess I did, so you knew that I understood this principle. I will add, though, that one does need to understand how RAW works, to adjust accordingly when you deviate from it, whether in designing a setting, building a character, or just discussing the rules with another person.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Every case of a "Low Signature" or "No Signature" enhancement on DR in published GURPS material includes such a limitation or an indication that the signature being mitigated relates to actually being hit, which is the only way to detect DR, by striking it. In the case of the Monster Hunters DR cases in question, it seems clear that the fluff text is saying it looks like you got hit normally, not like somebody just punched a wooden board, or that nobody can detect your demonic resilience or your nanotech bioenhanced skin just by looking at it.
None of which is as clear to me as it is to you. I certainly haven't read everything written for GURPS. I certainly don't remember everything I've read, and there are things I own where I've never finished. I don't consider that odd; GURPS books aren't always best read cover to cover, and even when one tries, sometimes life happens and you lose your place... or just have to start over again because you know where you stopped, but you can't remember enough of what you read before that point.

I have not read the vast majority of it. I think I've only mentioned Monster Hunter when quoting others; I've never played nor read it, give or take a random article in the one issue of Pyramid I own, which was more for "funsies" as I knew I didn't really understand most of what it said. I'm not basing my argument on that. There's how it doesn't seem to mesh well with the real world, how I'm not sure if it is the best gameable abstract, and how a lot of the evidence tossed at me as absolute seems circumstantial, at least in my ignorance.

I'd have to dig to see if it has happened in this thread, but since it happened recently in another, I'm mentioning it. There are times when someone, even someone knowledgeable trying to help... gets it wrong. Or gets an aspect of it wrong. Even citing the wrong source can cause issues. No, that does not undermine good, solid arguments, but you better believe that it makes things more confusing! XD
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Last edited by Otaku; 08-19-2020 at 01:11 PM. Reason: Rewrote last paragraph; wasn't being clear.
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Old 08-18-2020, 08:34 PM   #36
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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extra arms COULD be inconvenient (people with Kintarophobia...)
Is that fear of Japanese folk heroes?
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Old 08-18-2020, 09:26 PM   #37
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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Is that fear of Japanese folk heroes?
I think I forgot this belonged than more than just the Mortal Kombat 2 sub-boss

Speaking of which: yours is an appropriate name considering MK1's sub-boss.
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

DR by as a trait is neither obvious or invisible. It's your call as a GM as to weather DR would be apparent. Lizard skin or or tortoise shell might be clearly armored assuming people are familiar with those animals. A force field can be visible or invisible or only visible when it reduces damage. Worn armor I'd say is usually visible, but cloth armor or thin leather may not be so easy to discern from regular clothing likewise alien or higher tech armors may not look like the armor you're used to.
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Old 08-19-2020, 01:11 PM   #39
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
DR by as a trait is neither obvious or invisible. It's your call as a GM as to weather DR would be apparent.
The problem with this theory is that the utility of armor that people don't notice is clearly different from the utility of armor that people do notice.

Maybe GURPS should have a disadvantage for this. Something like:
Obviously Dangerous [-2 per level, max 5]
You look dangerous. This is not a reaction penalty per se (though it can easily combine with a social stigma), it just means that you get classified as a potential threat by people concerned with that sort of thing. With one level people react to use as if you've got LC 4 gear, each additional level reduces apparently LC by 1. If this reduces your apparent LC below what you would be entitled to possess (given position in society and your society's CR) you should take additional disadvantages.
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Old 08-19-2020, 01:20 PM   #40
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Default Re: Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

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The problem with this theory is that the utility of armor that people don't notice is clearly different from the utility of armor that people do notice.
What's the difference in utility between being able to see that a person has DR or not being able to see it when the DR is 1? For that matter if the DR is 10...is it a good thing or a bad thing when you can see "he has DR"?
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