Insubstantial questions

[tantric]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Tantric, have you considered Permeate+Meld? It would allow a genius loci to be spread about the locus, which covers Insubstantial as well as allowing the genius to see and hear all around the locus.


As for food,you might consider Doesn't Eat with some Dependency on offerings/sacrifices/victims for the ability to have positive FP. Or a suspended animation build.

Genius Loci are going to be a problem. They will have to be aware of everything that happens in their area, Limited Omniscience again. Where is Meld? I was looking at Mindlink and Mindshare....

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by tantric

Genius Loci are going to be a problem. They will have to be aware of everything that happens in their area, Limited Omniscience again. Where is Meld? I was looking at Mindlink and Mindshare....

Meld is a pair of Enhancements for Permeate, presented in POWERS.

Instead of hiding inside something, like the walls of a haunted house, you become part of it. Meld 2 allows this on distributed objects, like all the trees in a forest. You can use regular senses spread over the locus in general, or can focus on a particular location with a Ready. So a genius loci might not hear *every* word said in its locus unless you buy up its senses, but once its attention is drawn, it can listen and watch invisibly from inside the host object, and materialize to physically mess with the intruders by stepping out. Or without emerging if some animating power is arranged.

[tantric]

Okay, assuming I create a new advantage called Incorporeal that includes Doesn't Eat/Breathe and Immunity of Metabolic Hazards. Maintenance at 10pt level is part of this advantage, but can be defined by the player. Incorporeal beings are Mute and Invisible to corporeal beings, but not to each other. This is a native state - it cannot be switched on and off. Incorporeal beings are affected by gravity in the sense that they fall off cliffs and can't fly, they just don't take damage from falling. Some have mental limitations that prevent them from walking though walls or other hang overs from life. The basic price is less than building this with Insubstantial + all the Doesn't's, BUT the Affects Corporeal enhancement for various powers is much higher and works differently, based on the idea that an Incorporeal PC is largely ineffective, unless that PC can affect others. Fine.

Problem: Incorporeal beings use stats differently. For instance, we calculate Damage from Will when it comes to combat between Incorporeal beings. This is complex and has to be done well - for instance, I have no idea what DX means to a spirit. Should I use Per instead? Then I'd have to increase the cost of Per and what's the point? I'm certain there was something about this in 3e! I'm assuming Incorporeal can be used as a lens applied to characters that die, but also for beings that were never alive.

[Nereidalbel]

I'm thinking Tk limited to Reach C for 3.5/level may be good for Incorporeal. It's far cheaper than ST, and it works well to say that older, more powerful spirits would simply have more points to buy higher TK. And it's a simple Attribute Substitution Perk to move TK skill over to Will.

Throw in a PM of choice and the TK drops to exactly 3/level.

Originally Posted by tantric

I'm assuming Incorporeal can be used as a lens applied to characters that die, but also for beings that were never alive.

For characters that die, apply Incorporeal to their sheet and simply adjust their point value to reflect the changes. For beings that were never actually alive, just build them as characters with Incorporeal.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by tantric

The root problem is that Insubstantial is not what I'm looking for. I need Incorporeal, where you have no physical body and that is your native state. That would include no physical needs and total unsensibility or whatever you want to call it. Might have ST replaced by Will, which bothers me with Insubstantial Always On (what is your ST for?) Probably no issue with Always On, unless you want to define where you body goes.

Any chance of us working that up, Incorporeal as a native state with no switchablity? It would be rather useful in a number of situations. That would need a set of rules for dealing with other massless beings, with Will as ST and part of Move. Can corporeal beings affect incorporeals with Will? That would be sensible - you can push ghosts away by thinking at them. Would you need DX?

It's a lot like Astral Entity (p. B263). I based Unmanifested Spirit in GURPS Fantasy on Astral Entity, with the one change of adding Mute (To Substantial Only, -10%).

It's always a good idea to review the literature before undertaking original design work.

Bill Stoddard

[tantric]

I have, and I've decided:

Incorporeal Being [175]

Incorporeal is an advantage for spirit characters for whom this is the native state. It is a combination of Unmanifested Spirit [Fantasy 136] and Magical Spirit [Fantasy] and Injury Tolerance, Diffuse.

There is no Affects Substantial enhancement for Insubstantial in this case, as it is assumed that all sapient beings have an insubstantial spirit which is affected by psi and some forms of magic, thus there is no point in charging extra to incorporeal beings for abilities that corporeal beings have at no charge. Any ability, magical or psionic, that can affect an incorporeal being may be used by an incorporeal being to affect a corporeal being. Thus a spirit cannot use Flame Jet to affect a corporeal being, but could use Fear. The Affects Corporeal Enhancement is at +100% for all Powers and is used differently for Magic [discuss]

Incorporeal Beings are bound by gravity, but not harmed by falling. Flight must be purchased separately. They can pass through solid matter, but slowly, and can move normally underwater or through vacuum.

Incorporeal beings are invisible to corporeal beings and cannot be sensed by any physical senses, except for beings with the Medium advantage or other related powers. The can sense other Incorporeal beings normally. Abilities that allow them to detect magic or other supernatural features must be purchased separately. Incorporeals are Mute except to other spirit beings.

Incorporeal characters can possess beings with Channeling that are willing, but otherwise do not have the Possession power.

Problems: How to apply the Affects Corporeal enhancement to spells and magery, which could easily get out of hand. My instinct is to say that Incorporeal beings can't use spells and must model their abilities as Powers. There might also be a general Affects Corporeal advantage that allows the spirit to pour extra FP into a power to make it effective, rather than doubling the cost of every Power. Also, is there any point in messing with stats so that spirits use Will instead of ST to harm each other - then what is ST for? The fact that ST becomes largely useless is part of the reason this trait isn't that expensive.

This doesn't seem out of hand - it would allow spirit characters in 250pt games. They would mostly be advisors with maybe one power that works on corporeal characters.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I can think of a whole lot of ways an Insubstantial Ally who can't Affect Substantial could be useful to me. EG: I will never be incommunicado with the outside world if I am captured; I have an unstoppable envoy. Unless you throw some severe limits on where it can go and what it can do, IMHO it should be expensive.

I was going to say. At least you have an almost unstoppable spy.

The ability for spirits to see one another is easily and cheaply accounted for if you standardize Affects Substantial Only -10% on their Invisibility. If you want some super-crafty spirits to be able to hide from other spirits, too, just let them buy that Limitation off.

Right. The Spirit template includes that limitation on Invisibility, presumably for that reason.

[whswhs]

One modification to all this that might make sense is to say that you can have the template at cost 0 points IF you accept the restriction that you exist in the spirit plane, and cannot observe or directly interact with the material plane. It's the "unseen spy" package that does and should cost a lot.

Bill Stoddard

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by tantric

I have, and I've decided:

Incorporeal Being [175]

Incorporeal is an advantage for spirit characters for whom this is the native state. It is a combination of Unmanifested Spirit [Fantasy 136] and Magical Spirit [Fantasy] and Injury Tolerance, Diffuse.

There is no Affects Substantial enhancement for Insubstantial in this case, as it is assumed that all sapient beings have an insubstantial spirit which is affected by psi and some forms of magic, thus there is no point in charging extra to incorporeal beings for abilities that corporeal beings have at no charge. Any ability, magical or psionic, that can affect an incorporeal being may be used by an incorporeal being to affect a corporeal being. Thus a spirit cannot use Flame Jet to affect a corporeal being, but could use Fear. The Affects Corporeal Enhancement is at +100% for all Powers and is used differently for Magic [discuss]

Incorporeal Beings are bound by gravity, but not harmed by falling. Flight must be purchased separately. They can pass through solid matter, but slowly, and can move normally underwater or through vacuum.

Incorporeal beings are invisible to corporeal beings and cannot be sensed by any physical senses, except for beings with the Medium advantage or other related powers. The can sense other Incorporeal beings normally. Abilities that allow them to detect magic or other supernatural features must be purchased separately. Incorporeals are Mute except to other spirit beings.

Incorporeal characters can possess beings with Channeling that are willing, but otherwise do not have the Possession power.

Problems: How to apply the Affects Corporeal enhancement to spells and magery, which could easily get out of hand. My instinct is to say that Incorporeal beings can't use spells and must model their abilities as Powers. There might also be a general Affects Corporeal advantage that allows the spirit to pour extra FP into a power to make it effective, rather than doubling the cost of every Power. Also, is there any point in messing with stats so that spirits use Will instead of ST to harm each other - then what is ST for? The fact that ST becomes largely useless is part of the reason this trait isn't that expensive.

This doesn't seem out of hand - it would allow spirit characters in 250pt games. They would mostly be advisors with maybe one power that works on corporeal characters.

Use TK, (capped at Will?), and using Will as the attribute base for all skill rolls. To save costs on TK, limit it to Reach C (-30%) and apply a PM of choice (-10%). This nets a mere 3 points per ST for interactions with other spirits, as well as with any materials that have been enchanted to be solid to otherwise incorporeal beings.

If you want FP costs to affect substantial things, apply the Costs FP limitation to the cost of Affects Substantial. If the base is +100%, somebody willing to spend 5 FP per interaction would only have to pay +50%, while the guy who wants to never pay any FP has to pay the full +100%.

As for Magery, all missile spells are intangible death bolts that murder other spirits, while passing harmlessly through people and (most) solid matter, while mental spells work on the living just as well as mortal beings can use mental spells against spirits.

[tantric]

Originally Posted by whswhs

One modification to all this that might make sense is to say that you can have the template at cost 0 points IF you accept the restriction that you exist in the spirit plane, and cannot observe or directly interact with the material plane. It's the "unseen spy" package that does and should cost a lot.

Bill Stoddard

Hmm - good point. Being a spirit on the spirit plane is a Feature [0]. The unseen spy is an issue. Most ancestral spirits will be severely limited in how much aid they can give. They flat cannot give out answers to difficult questions. In the rare cases when they do, they must be coerced by a diviner. I need to come up with a standard limitation for this - Pact? Sense of Duty (Descendants) 10% and Major Vow (No Overt Interference in Mortal Affairs) 10%. These pacts would have to be very clearly defined for the various groups - Guardian Spirits, Ancestral Spirits and Patron Spirits (the Allies of Diviners). Thus if I up the base cost of Incorporeal to 225, it's still viable with a -40% Pact. Pacts would also make Clairsentience workable point wise.

I think my major modifications will be changing how Affects Corporeal/Substantial works - the idea of *** for tat so that any spell that can be used against an Incorporeal can be used by Incorporeal against a corporeal (which oddly includes Body Control, as spirits can be paralyzed, made to vomit, giggle, etc, though they can't be Harmed or Healed) isn't completely insane, plus allowing Injury Tolerance, Diffuse at no extra cost, but that the Affects Corporeal enhancement for other powers is +100% instead of +40%. The setting I'm working on does have a mythology of wise spirit advisors, but NONE of incorporeal *human* spirits as being that dangerous, outside of curses/Probability Alteration. My goal is to cheapen the basic advantage, but make it much more expensive to have dangerous incorporeals.