Ghost - Problems with Insubstantiality

[Fnugus]

What about just putting "Affects Substantial, +100%" on it? That would let the ghost interact with the physical world whenever she wants.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Fnugus

What about just putting "Affects Substantial, +100%" on it? That would let the ghost interact with the physical world whenever she wants.

Not really. That only allows the ghost to use other abilities that also have Affects Substantial already on them in order to impact the physical world (though, yes, Affects Substantial is pretty much a necessary modifier for this build).

EDIT: Rather than TK, you could take Affects Substantial on your base ST, too. That'd probably work out better (and possibly cheaper, too). Then also take the 'modified ST-based damage' bit for Armor Divisor to represent reaching through someone and poking their brain.

[Langy]

Here's a full build for what I think you're after:

Insubstantial (Affects Substantial, +100%; Always On, -50%) [120]
ST Affects Substantial [40]
ST Damage Ignores DR [6]

This is for a ST10 character. Further ST will cost about 16.25 points per level (round normally, so if the decimal is 0.25 you round down, while if it's 0.5 or 0.75 you round up). This is accurate up to ST18; after that, it's a little off, but not hugely.

(another way to price it might be 15.875 points per level of ST, since 8 levels of ST gives +1d to damage; honestly, I'd probably just say 'round it all' and use 16 points per additional level of ST flat)

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Langy

Here's a full build for what I think you're after:

Insubstantial (Affects Substantial, +100%; Always On, -50%) [120]
ST Affects Substantial [40]
ST Damage Ignores DR [6]

This is for a ST10 character. Further ST will cost about 16.25 points per level (round normally, so if the decimal is 0.25 you round down, while if it's 0.5 or 0.75 you round up). This is accurate up to ST18; after that, it's a little off, but not hugely.

(another way to price it might be 15.875 points per level of ST, since 8 levels of ST gives +1d to damage; honestly, I'd probably just say 'round it all' and use 16 points per additional level of ST flat)

Can you give me the source for this method? It contradicts the method from powers I've already posted.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Can you give me the source for this method? It contradicts the method from powers I've already posted.

Er, no it doesn't. It is the method from powers you just posted.

EDIT: To be clear, I just pre-calculated the cost of the innate attack and shoved it into the cost of ST. It follows a simple progression - +1d per eight levels, or +1 to damage per 2 levels. +1 damage in a crushing attack is 0.3 times 5 points or 1.5 points; thus, +1 ST is 0.75 points; factor in the +300% modifier and it's 3*0.75 points.

Also, the Affects Substantial bit isn't just for the ST-based damage. It's also to carry things and stuff.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Langy

Er, no it doesn't. It is the method from powers you just posted.

No it isn't, you've applied "Affects Substantial" +40% to an assumed cost of 100 points for ST that gives 40 points. If we break that down in to its components you will see the difference:

Striking ST 10 [50]
"Affects Substantial" +40%/ +20 points
But the system from powers gives +0.8 points for being able to do use your ST to do damage to Substantial things, you've added 19.2 points! Why?

Lifting ST 10 [30] (For carrying things)
"Affects Substantial" +40%/ +12 points
Ok I guess.

HP 10 [20]
"Affects Substantial" +40%/ +8 points
Why? How do your HP affect substantial things?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

No it isn't, you've applied "Affects Substantial" +40% to an assumed cost of 100 points for ST that gives 40 points. If we break that down in to its components you will see the difference:

That's a good point; I didn't think of it in terms of components. I'm not entirely certain that that way is correct, though. Honestly, I think the full +40% on regular ST to make it affect substantial is more balanced than the utterly cheap method that comes about by breaking it down to components.

Still, if we were to break it all down, it'd come out to:

Insubstantial (Affects Substantial, +100%; Always On, -50%) [120]
ST Affects Substantial [13]
ST Damage Ignores DR [6]

With a cost of 12.55 points per extra level of ST.

(again, I'd round this to 12.5 points per extra level of ST, or 25 points per 2 extra levels of ST)

I might also add in a Perk of some kind to balance it out at 140 points total for the desired effect.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Langy

That's a good point; I didn't think of it in terms of components. I'm not entirely certain that that way is correct, though. Honestly, I think the full +40% on regular ST to make it affect substantial is more balanced than the utterly cheap method that comes about by breaking it down to components.

You could compare the price change for Super-effort in Powers when it just went on the Lifting ST, to what Super-effort in Supers costs when it's applied straight to ST but doesn't effect HP.

[Bruno]

I don't know if this is helpful or not, but I wrote a short article on the modifiers on Insubstantial and how they interact with each other.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I don't know if this is helpful or not, but I wrote a short article on the modifiers on Insubstantial and how they interact with each other.

It is helpful, but doesn't answer all of my questions. I'm frustrated still at how you interpret Can Carry to have it's literal titular meaning, yet I feel the cost comes from the ability to make something else insubstantial--which is something I do not want.

Originally Posted by Langy

Insubstantial (Affects Substantial, +100%; Always On, -50%) [120]
ST Affects Substantial [13]
ST Damage Ignores DR [6]

With a cost of 12.55 points per extra level of ST.

(again, I'd round this to 12.5 points per extra level of ST, or 25 points per 2 extra levels of ST)

I might also add in a Perk of some kind to balance it out at 140 points total for the desired effect.

according to the linked article from Bruno, we would also need a +50% cosmic on Insubstantiality, bringing it up 40pts. I'm still confused, however, with whether or not Can Carry and Partial are necessary--because both are so connected to the idea of turning an object substantial/insubstantial, but also carry other basic functions as well, such as... picking up objects or poking someone.


--
I suppose what I'm looking for is this:
Untouchable Deadly Assassin Meta-Enhancement (+350%) minus the ability to switch yourself (Always On -50%) minus the ability to switch other objects (??? -??%)
(plus ST ignores DR as above)

It's that ability to turn objects substantial/insubstantial. If you were going to price that, by itself, how much would it be?

BTW: At first, I thought it might be -80% because the difference between Partial 20% and Partial 100% is that you can turn a held, insubstantial object substantial, but the cost here is not specifically from that--it's from being able to hold a substantial object... which the character can do, so now I'm still confused.