Ghost - Problems with Insubstantiality

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

Now, on the combat front, do you need Affects Substantial just to punch someone? Assuming you already have Partial (you can tap them, so...?).



Still are you sure it applies to the whole ST or just striking ST?

Tapping is cosmetic so the Partial covers that and a few other minor things. But I would require it on this charecter if he can punch while being Insubstantial. Your paying a premium for the Invulnerability.
If your hand stays solid for the entire turn and it is vulnerable to attack then maybe I could be persuaded ot let you slide on the extra enhancement.
GMS call.

It applies to the whole ST if you pay for it that way and not just on price of Striking ST. Ignores DR of minor use on lifting ST but combined with Partial I would have no issue with you doing things like Lockpicking and such.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Tapping is cosmetic so the Partial covers that and a few other minor things. But I would require it on this charecter if he can punch while being Insubstantial. Your paying a premium for the Invulnerability.
If your hand stays solid for the entire turn and it is vulnerable to attack then maybe I could be persuaded ot let you slide on the extra enhancement.
GMS call.

It applies to the whole ST if you pay for it that way and not just on price of Striking ST. Ignores DR of minor use on lifting ST but combined with Partial I would have no issue with you doing things like Lockpicking and such.

Ok, Invulnerability is desired, so I would probably take Affects Substantial on top of reflexive.

Interesting way to pay for [lockpicking and such], but acceptable. My only remark is that I find it interesting that doing the same with TK would be cheaper. We're emulating ST, so it would basically be 30 (20 for TK +10 for normal ST)pts per ST +200 to get TK to 10--vs the 40/ and +300.....
Let's ignore HP? 32/ST and +240? It's still cheaper to go TK (though TK is underpriced IMO).

Still, I think I have most of my questions answered now, thanks!

[Dalren]

What if you took No Manipulators and then offset it with TK? Since TK works like a pair of hands with the STR of your TK level, No Manipulators [-50] and TK 10 [50] would balance out. Of course you would want to apply Affects Substantial (+40%) to your TK and would probably want to buy additional levels of TK as well, but it's a good start. The only problem to consider is if your TK has a power modifier and something makes that power inaccessible. You would then only be able to interact with things by pushing them with your body.

Edit: For that matter, TK 10 with Reduced Range /10 (-30%) and Affects Insubstantial (+40%) would only be [55] points. After adjusting for No Manipulators, you would basically have a pair of STR 10 TK arms that affected both insubstantial and substantial at a range of 1 yd for a net cost of [5] points.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Dalren

What if you took No Manipulators and then offset it with TK? Since TK works like a pair of hands with the STR of your TK level, No Manipulators [-50] and TK 10 [50] would balance out. Of course you would want to apply Affects Substantial (+40%) to your TK and would probably want to buy additional levels of TK as well, but it's a good start. The only problem to consider is if your TK has a power modifier and something makes that power inaccessible. You would then only be able to interact with things by pushing them with your body.

Edit: For that matter, TK 10 with Reduced Range /10 (-30%) and Affects Insubstantial (+40%) would only be [55] points. After adjusting for No Manipulators, you would basically have a pair of STR 10 TK arms that affected both insubstantial and substantial at a range of 1 yd for a net cost of [5] points.

I think you missed the point here--if the insubstantial character could push things around with their body, we wouldn't need the TK. =]

However, addressing your suggestion, personally (when I GM) I dislike a character taking somewhat conflicting advantages like that. In theory, we could also buy their ST down to 0 (HP kept up higher, obviously) to buy TK even higher. In game theory, this can make sense because their ST never does anything, but in terms of what we're representing, this is not true. The character does not actually have ST 0. They have ST (say) 12, and buying TK 12 is a necessary emulation of that ST carrying over to affect substantial things due to game mechanics.
No manipulators represents not having fingers or such. But the character does have fingers and the TK is being used to emulate those fingers affecting the substantial. Now if this was a person born with no fingers that had TK, I would have no problem with it, but that's not what's being modeled.*

In my mind, this is akin to taking Invisibility (Always on) and then taking as many appearance-related disadvantages as possible, stating they will never come into play but should still give you points. It just doesn't work that way.


*Now if this was a ghost of a person born with no fingers, you would put the no manipulators as a limitation on the TK as well--because the TK is only there to imitate what they can do with their body, meaning no fingers.

[Dalren]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

I think you missed the point here--if the insubstantial character could push things around with their body, we wouldn't need the TK. =]

The character would only be able to push insubstantial things with it's body.

Originally Posted by Dusqune

However, addressing your suggestion, personally (when I GM) I dislike a character taking somewhat conflicting advantages like that. In theory, we could also buy their ST down to 0 (HP kept up higher, obviously) to buy TK even higher. In game theory, this can make sense because their ST never does anything, but in terms of what we're representing, this is not true. The character does not actually have ST 0. They have ST (say) 12, and buying TK 12 is a necessary emulation of that ST carrying over to affect substantial things due to game mechanics.
No manipulators represents not having fingers or such. But the character does have fingers and the TK is being used to emulate those fingers affecting the substantial. Now if this was a person born with no fingers that had TK, I would have no problem with it, but that's not what's being modeled.*

The combination of No Manipulators AND STR 0 already has a precedent (see the Body of Air and Body of Fire meta-traits). What would happen if a character with TK used the Body of Air or Body of Fire spell? I see no reason not to allow them the use of their TK despite the meta-trait having STR 0 AND No Manipulators. No Manipulators represents not having limbs (No Fine Manipulators is for fingers and the like). Since the character in question is a ghost, we don't know whether or not the character even has limbs per se. We jusf know that it has a way to interact with things. If the character were to have No Manipulators and STR 0 and were to lose access to their TK for any reason, they would be unable to even push insubstantial things with their ghostly torso. Not true for the same ghost with No Fine Manipulators but a normal STR score. It's a subtle difference, but a relevant one.

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by Dalren

The character would only be able to push insubstantial things with it's body.


The combination of No Manipulators AND STR 0 already has a precedent (see the Body of Air and Body of Fire meta-traits). What would happen if a character with TK used the Body of Air or Body of Fire spell? I see no reason not to allow them the use of their TK despite the meta-trait having STR 0 AND No Manipulators. No Manipulators represents not having limbs (No Fine Manipulators is for fingers and the like). Since the character in question is a ghost, we don't know whether or not the character even has limbs per se. We jusf know that it has a way to interact with things. If the character were to have No Manipulators and STR 0 and were to lose access to their TK for any reason, they would be unable to even push insubstantial things with their ghostly torso. Not true for the same ghost with No Fine Manipulators but a normal STR score. It's a subtle difference, but a relevant one.

Let me clarify...

-I have absolutely no problem with the ST 0/no manipulators combo, that was actually sort of my point: if we're going to save points by getting no manipulators, why not buy down ST too?

-I have no problem letting someone get no manipulators/ST 0 and TK--as long as the TK is actually emulating TK.

-I realize I wasn't clear on this, and I apologise, but the ghost does have limbs. The ghost has fingers. She has no TK abilities. She does however have the ability to selectively interact with the physical world with her own, humanoid body, requiring the use of limbs and fingers actively touching things. This would only be at the ST score the character had at the time of her death.

Now, if youre building a poltergeist psychic ball of frustration that actually has tk, no manipulators, ST 0 and all, go for it. You can even build your own ghost that can only interact via TK and thats fine--because thats what youre emulating.

I guess my point was that since thats not what is represented here, it feels awfully munchkiny to allow no manipulators and still let it operate the same way (which as I didnt catch and you pointed out it wouldn't, but im not wanting to emulate the described limitations). The whole reason TK was brought up was to give her a way to touch things...with her hands. Hence the no range limitation.

And this is also why I am probably not going to build this with TK--the character doesnt have TK.

[sir_pudding]

Why not just have Partial? If you make your hands substantial you can carry substantial things, and they don't become insubstantial, right? What am I missing here?

[Nereidalbel]

Would Crushing Attack 1 (innate, originating from fingertips) with the Affects Substantial enhancement work? Assuming you rolled well enough to get your hand into somebody's head, the origin of the attack would already be past the skull, and a Partial Dice modifier could prevent the whole "turns your brain into goo instantly" aspect.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

And Ignores DR on ST is brilliant! ...sortof? How would you handle a ST 10 character? Do you say, "You have 10 lvls of ST, so 10*10*3=300pts to ignore DR"? Or, is it fair to just buy it with stringing ST? say "You have 10 lvls of ST, that's 10 of striking ST, so 10*5*3=150"? 150 pts to ignore DR with punches only seems reasonable to me, esp considering it increases with ST to balance you out.

Thx! Was typing before your post came up.
Still are you sure it applies to the whole ST or just striking ST?

GURPS Powers gives a different pricing to the one JCurwen suggested:

Originally Posted by Modifying ST-Based Damage; Page 146

To apply modifiers to ST-based damage, follow these steps:

1. Find thrusting damage for the highest ST you can use for unarmed combat. This is the sum of regular ST, Arm ST, and Striking ST.
2. Calculate the “effective point cost” of the basic thrust damage from step 1 as if it were a Crushing Attack. Don’t pay this cost! You just need it for step 4.
3. Total the desired modifiers. Treat a net limitation larger than -80% as -80%.
4. Multiply the cost from step 2 by the net modifier from step 3 to find the cost of the modifiers. Round up. Record a positive cost as an advantage, a negative one as a disadvantage.

Example: Kong has ST 15, Arm ST +10, and Striking ST +10. He can strike with ST 35, which gives him 4d-1 thrusting damage. Crushing Attack 4d-1 would cost 19 points, so Armor Divisor (10), +200%, would be a 38-point advantage for Kong, while All-Out, -25%, would be -4-point disadvantage.

ST 10 gives Thrust 1d-2. As a crushing attack that costs 2 points. We then take Affects Substantial +40% and Cosmic: Ignores DR +300% for a total of +340%; this gives a total cost of 6.8 rounded up to 7 points.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Why not just have Partial? If you make your hands substantial you can carry substantial things, and they don't become insubstantial, right? What am I missing here?

The hands are then targetable; the character is such that no part of it ever actually becomes substantial. I'd probably handle this via telekinesis, as it more accurately reflects what the character is doing.

Also, it'd still need either an innate attack with ignores DR or ignores DR on its ST or TK-based damage (as well as Affects Substantial) in order to pull off its attack.