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Old 07-12-2022, 06:43 AM   #11
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
An attack coming along a hex line isn’t a problem, since which attacks count as coming from the front is already well established by the target hexes one can shoot or throw a weapon into. If a given hex is visible to your front, attacks from that hex are made through one of your front hex sides.
I concur. You posted a good test that reduces subjectivity. However, one could argue that some subjective judgment still exists when it is a close call either way with that test.

I say, as a rule, give the benefit of doubt to the target. If a jab attack comes in along the line between a front and side hex, treat it like a attack into the target's front hex. If it comes in along the line between a side and rear hex, treat it like a side hex. This makes it consistent. However, it also means that if there is a situation where, if you consistently use this rule, you lose the granularity to rule otherwise as the situation may merit.

Perhaps, for the sake of efficient game play, one could initially use the test that you described and then default to what I described if the judgement call is bogging down game play. It's like working within two accepted boundaries when the facing situation is in a gray area.

This could apply to other weapons where facing granularity become an issue.
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Old 07-12-2022, 07:34 AM   #12
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

I also think Shostak's interpretation makes sense for jabs.

Now, what about an two-hex occult blast from Staff III? It is an attack, but is it more like a thrown attack (no facing bonus[1]) or more like a jab? Unlike a thrown attack, there is no penalty for range, so it seems similar to a jab in that respect.

[1] I play thrown weapons like missile weapons when it comes to facing modifiers, though the rules are not, I think, explicit.
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Old 07-12-2022, 08:05 AM   #13
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I also think Shostak's interpretation makes sense for jabs.

Now, what about an two-hex occult blast from Staff III? It is an attack, but is it more like a thrown attack (no facing bonus[1]) or more like a jab? Unlike a thrown attack, there is no penalty for range, so it seems similar to a jab in that respect.

[1] I play thrown weapons like missile weapons when it comes to facing modifiers, though the rules are not, I think, explicit.
A good facing question, indeed.

It seems that the occult strike from two hexes away would operate more like a jab. One can reasonable argue that its not the same but, from a functional standpoint and unless someone can convince me otherwise, it seems to act like a jab because it has the same range and direction limitations for the attacker.

I have always wondered about the missile exemption from facing adjustments. From longer distances (however that is defined) it makes sense. You have to take some time to aim before firing and that situation doesn't change much whether the target is facing/aware of you or not. If you are within a few megahexes, facing and awareness of being targeted become more like any other Melee situation and one could argue that facing adjustments for missile weapons are reasonable. However, the argument would be, where do you draw that line? Thus, keeping it as not affecting DX seems to be the easiest resolution to avoid too much complication. I can see arguments breaking out in many games and derailing them over where to declare facing to allow adjDX.

The missile weapon DX adjustments seem to favor the target based upon how they are moving but the are are some bonuses for the attacker too. I think that the rules for making a missile weapon attack take into account that the target can be moving within their MA. If they are also dodging, that changes how they move and become a more difficult target. The rules also allow for the missile attacker to gain bonus DX for taking a more solid position or more time to aim. So, one could argue that the lack of facing related DX adjustments for missile weapons is an overall wash.

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 07-12-2022 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 07-12-2022, 09:03 AM   #14
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Now, what about an two-hex occult blast from Staff III?
The occult zap is never "A physical attack made from an enemy’s side [or rear] hex" so never gets any facing bonus.

Doing a physical jab with your staff spear from two hexes away also wouldn't get the bonus. Also the jab wouldn't get any charge bonus either.
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Old 07-12-2022, 09:06 AM   #15
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

Missile weapons don't get a facing bonus, most likely because you can't dodge or parry them effectively. But I would rule that if you get shot in the back, the shield won't help you, so facing matters.

Throwing weapons do matters, especially since they can be thrown at the range of 1, and they are explicitly stated to work like any other attack. Defend and Dodge actions also works differently for Throwing Weapons and Missile Weapons.

I would say that RAI is that you do get facing bonus on both Throwing Weapons, and Jabs, including Whip attacks and Staff attacks.

This leaves the original question unanswered. Who decides from where the attack comes when it comes in between two hex sides? Front or Side, or Side or Rear. I would go with attacker's choice. When you shoot or jab along a wall or some obstacle the attacker chooses since his attack is not affected by what is in either hex. But this is a judgment call on my part.

We also have Spear Throwers and Boomerangs that have missile weapon range adjustments, does that mean they can't be Defended against like other Throwing Weapons when you are in a melee situation, or do they still count as Thrown weapons, but only the range modifiers are different?

IF we go by RAW, then we end up with some strange effects but Henry is correct. The only side and rear hexes are one step away. But then we have Thrown Weapons that sometimes get a buff but not all the time.
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:14 AM   #16
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I also think Shostak's interpretation makes sense for jabs.

Now, what about an two-hex occult blast from Staff III? It is an attack, but is it more like a thrown attack (no facing bonus[1]) or more like a jab? Unlike a thrown attack, there is no penalty for range, so it seems similar to a jab in that respect.

[1] I play thrown weapons like missile weapons when it comes to facing modifiers, though the rules are not, I think, explicit.
It's probably most like a spell, which would make it ineligible for facing adjustment.
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:44 AM   #17
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

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It's probably most like a spell, which would make it ineligible for facing adjustment.
The occult zap is such a strange creature that has been introduced into TFT. It's a like a spell but not totally.

If you add the fact that Staff 3 gets a +3DX bonus for the occult zap, it negates not getting a facing bonus while being able to strike in any direction from the wizard and bypassing armor. I can see the reluctance for it to have a facing bonus.
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Old 07-12-2022, 12:37 PM   #18
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

To add to the strangeness of the occult zap, the +3 bonus for Staff III is only on the to-hit roll itself, and hence doesn't give a bonus to order of actions.


I personally outlaw aimed (at specific body parts, in order to avoid easy KO via head shots) occult zaps, but YMMV.
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Old 07-12-2022, 01:33 PM   #19
Bill_in_IN
 
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Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
To add to the strangeness of the occult zap, the +3 bonus for Staff III is only on the to-hit roll itself, and hence doesn't give a bonus to order of actions.


I personally outlaw aimed (at specific body parts, in order to avoid easy KO via head shots) occult zaps, but YMMV.
I'll keep that house rule in mind. I haven't seen much need for it yet but my recent GM activity has been somewhat limited to a couple of players.
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Old 07-12-2022, 01:53 PM   #20
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Jab attacks and facing

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
To add to the strangeness of the occult zap, the +3 bonus for Staff III is only on the to-hit roll itself, and hence doesn't give a bonus to order of actions.


I personally outlaw aimed (at specific body parts, in order to avoid easy KO via head shots) occult zaps, but YMMV.
Ouch, yes that is a very good house rule!
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