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Old 01-20-2015, 08:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
They didn't wear full plate as I think I said; it just wasn't fashionable at the time. .
AFAIK they didn´t use Plate at this time, the varamgian Guard got equipped with scale Body armor , not plate.
That means those who didn´t bring maille with them from home.
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Old 01-20-2015, 09:58 AM   #22
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

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There's a vast difference between cast bronze plates and hammered iron ones. Plate defenses did exist in the period - greaves are listed alongside chausses in documents from his Empire.
Just keep in mind that having a Latin word for "leg defense" and a Romance word in use at the same time does not mean that there were two types of armour with two different names. Understanding Carolingian arms and armour is hard because they did not give them to the gods, bury them with the dead, or produce so many that some scraps were buried rather than being recycled, and the art and literature which survive are closely modeled on Roman models. The Osprey Carolingian Cavalry by David Niccole is pretty good and leans towards "several types of kit were in use" rather than "it was all a handful of types of plate helmet, mail shirt, and mail legging."
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:04 AM   #23
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Did they use crossbows? It seems wrong for the era, but I don't know. Does anyone know?
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:10 AM   #24
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Not AFAIK, i believe they don´t, it would be unprpable IMPOV but the Romans used a Kind of Crossbow
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Old 01-20-2015, 01:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

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They didn't wear full plate as I think I said; it just wasn't fashionable at the time. Greeks were wearing breastplates in the time of Socrates. It is a fairly simple concept. If nothing else he could have ordered it, and a local smithy produced it-better then what a Frankish smith could have. Or he could have bought an antique. Constantinople was mentioned not least because it is a center of artisanship. Or it could have been bought from a merchant in transit. And in any case, saying they "didn't" wear it is hyperbole. A warrior wore what he favored. It would be more accurate to say they generally favored scale.

There are lots of ways to imagine such a thing happening. Full plate in Medieval style is what is not available. Not partial plate.
There is no hypebole here. Eastern Romans in the 8th century wore either mail, or some form of lamelar armor. Not breastplates. Given that they were fighting other mailed cavalrymen on a regular basis, Maces were in widespread use(liberally daubed the "breaker of helmets" and "shatter of shields"), there's no reason to suspect that they were avoiding plate armor because it wasn't "fashionable".

Sure, he could have had someone make him a breastplate of bronze. He could also have them make him a Katana. But there's no plausible, historic reason to do so.

Mail, Scale and Lamellar are the order of the day.
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Old 01-20-2015, 07:29 PM   #26
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

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Did they use crossbows? It seems wrong for the era, but I don't know. Does anyone know?
Bernard S. Bachrach, Early Crolingian Warfare: Prelude to Empire, p. 112, suggests that crossbows were in continuous use, but doesn’t really give clear or helpful elaboration.

The Age of Charlemagne (an Osprey book) on page 31 seems to suggest there’s no evidence of crossbows used in war (but yes used in hunting?).

Weapons and warfare (.com – not providing the link because of pop-ups) suggests crossbows were replacing other weapons in the twelfth century, or at least were only becoming dominant then.

Wikipedia page on medieval hunting says the crossbow was introduced at the time of the First Crusade, although didn’t become a common hunting weapon until the 1400s (but note there is no footnote or source provided for that statement).

Ancient Worlds website mentions the Carolingians of your period using “an early form of the crossbow.” But does not elaborate.

Overall, I would allow, at most, hand-drawn crossbows. No levers, no winches, no other forms of mechanical assistance.
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Old 01-21-2015, 03:23 AM   #27
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

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What kind of Code of Honor would the Carolingians use? It's too early for Chivalric. Soldier's? Or some new one?

I think I'll base the Christian Code of Honor on upholding the seven cardinal virtues in order to live a more Christ-like life.
IIRC this was a serious cause of values dissonance in the period - how to integrate the Christian model of virtue with that of a warrior culture ... a Christ-like man is of limited use in a shield wall.
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Old 01-21-2015, 05:07 AM   #28
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

Well, the Seven virtues are (from Wikipedia): Charity, Chastity, Diligence, Humility, Kindness and Temperance. Trying to be all of these is worth -15 points, at least. The word trying is key here, though - Christianity accepts that man is not perfect and will stumble and fall.

Book Magic for the Bible: Banish, Calm the Winds, Chaperone, Command the Waves, Curse Sanctum, Dose, Fertility, Lay to Rest, Succor, Ward, Weatherworking

Exorcism is handled by the skill. Calm the Winds and Command the Waves are taken from Marc 4:35-41, Fertility and Weatherworking are essential for a farming community. Dose and Succor are there to provide the party with healing (and healing is the major miracle in the Bible). Chaperone, Curse Sanctum are manifestations of "protect us from evil" from the Lord's Prayer.
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Old 01-21-2015, 06:02 AM   #29
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Default Re: Charlemagne's Paladins - roleplaying in the 8th century

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IIRC this was a serious cause of values dissonance in the period - how to integrate the Christian model of virtue with that of a warrior culture ... a Christ-like man is of limited use in a shield wall.
But with a worldbuilder who understands both mindsets well, that's not a problem - it's an opportunity!
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Old 01-21-2015, 10:10 AM   #30
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But with a worldbuilder who understands both mindsets well, that's not a problem - it's an opportunity!
Of course - it's a problem for the players and PCs, but for anyone being creative conflict is always an opportunity.
Some of Bernard Cornwell's works explore this sort of theme quite well - his Warlord (Arthur) Cycle in a partially Christianised England facing Saxon invasion and the Saxon Cycle in a Christianised England struggling with the pagan Norse.
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