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Old 06-24-2021, 09:54 AM   #1
Emerikol
 
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Default Magic Guidance Question

So I am still working on my magic system for wizards in my campaign. THanks for your patience and answering questions.

So I've went the Thaumatology skill /college skill / spell skill route. Basically ritual magic. Magery will add to skill. It will also limit the max amount of fatigue that can be burned in a casting.

I'm contemplating though having the spell skills be in a grimoire and spell formulas have to be "found" to be allowed in the game. Naturally the PC will start with a grimoire with a good number of spells and then have to find the others.

Do you think it would be wise to limit the number of spells a PC can have ready at any given moment? Like limit it to 10+magery with a one hour switch out rule? Not sure if this adds much or not. I mean the grimoire is already a limitation.

What do you think a grimoire does with regard to costs overall? I'm thinking not that much but maybe something. The advantage is that if you already have skill in a college you don't need to train to get a new spell so maybe that outweighs the disadvantage of not having access to every spell and buying?

Some of this is just me thinking through things but I love to hear what the rest of you think on these things. Some of you've had a lot of experience so you make me think about stuff I miss. Thanks.
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Old 06-24-2021, 10:50 AM   #2
ericthered
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

I'm unsure if you are charging points to learn each spell?


Having a set number of "ready spells" sounds awesome, especially if it allows the wizard to learn any spell in their book (and the ability to find new spells without spending points to learn it). I suppose it'd be a sort of modular ability, where the grimoire is the list that can be read from.
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Old 06-24-2021, 10:58 AM   #3
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
So I've went the Thaumatology skill /college skill / spell skill route. Basically ritual magic. Magery will add to skill. It will also limit the max amount of fatigue that can be burned in a casting.
Spells are skills? Not techniques?

Magery adds to which skill?

You can't spend more Fatigue Points on a spell than your Magery level? That severely limits more powerful effects. Is this intentional? Can you use powerstones or other mana reserves?

Quote:
I'm contemplating though having the spell skills be in a grimoire and spell formulas have to be "found" to be allowed in the game. Naturally the PC will start with a grimoire with a good number of spells and then have to find the others.
Can you learn spells from a teacher without a grimoire? What about the magical traditions of the illiterate? Are there cunning men and wise women who can't read but can cast spells?

Quote:
Do you think it would be wise to limit the number of spells a PC can have ready at any given moment?
It's starting to sound like you're trying to recreate D&D's magic.

Personally, I wouldn't do this. One of the benefits of learning spells as skills is that they're just things you learn to do, not magical patterns you impress on the brain. Unless you are actively trying to recreate D&D magic, I don't see the benefit.

Quote:
What do you think a grimoire does with regard to costs overall? I'm thinking not that much but maybe something. The advantage is that if you already have skill in a college you don't need to train to get a new spell so maybe that outweighs the disadvantage of not having access to every spell and buying?
Typically, the point to including ritual magic in a setting is to have a magical paradigm that supposes that all magic is similar, and casting spells is just a matter of correctly focusing that magic in the right shape. Ritual magic lets you cast magic using defaults. If you block access to any spells but what's in your grimoire, you've kind of removed the whole purpose of ritual magic.

I think it would be a more sensible option if spells were just independent skills without defaults.
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Old 06-24-2021, 01:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
It's starting to sound like you're trying to recreate D&D's magic.

Personally, I wouldn't do this. One of the benefits of learning spells as skills is that they're just things you learn to do, not magical patterns you impress on the brain. Unless you are actively trying to recreate D&D magic, I don't see the benefit.
The GURPS magic systems in D&D page touches on how to do what this person seems to want to do:

Energy Reserve (spells): This is a special form of Fatigue that is only for spells and can function as the equivalent of preparing spells. By default it is recovered at the same rate as normal Fatigue and is effected by the Recover Energy spell. This can be combined with a variant of Hang Spell to allow wizards the ability to cast really huge spells via study or meditation.
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Old 06-24-2021, 05:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
So I've went the Thaumatology skill /college skill / spell skill route. Basically ritual magic. Magery will add to skill. It will also limit the max amount of fatigue that can be burned in a casting.
One issue with this set up is the requirement for mages to have skills for the core skill, college skill, and individual spells. That could end up being a lot of skills for players to keep track of. You'll want to consider whether your players will be able to handle that without stalling the game.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by limiting fatigue expenditures for casting. Could you please elaborate on that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
I'm contemplating though having the spell skills be in a grimoire and spell formulas have to be "found" to be allowed in the game. Naturally the PC will start with a grimoire with a good number of spells and then have to find the others.
One option would be for mages to cast spells they haven't mastered using their grimoire at the default penalty. But only if they have the right spell formula in their grimoire.

On the other hand, you could simply require the players to find a teacher to learn new spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
Do you think it would be wise to limit the number of spells a PC can have ready at any given moment? Like limit it to 10+magery with a one hour switch out rule? Not sure if this adds much or not. I mean the grimoire is already a limitation.
If you want to do a preparation-based magic system, using one of the systems designed for that like Path/Book may be easier than modifying the standard magic system. I'd recommend setting the limit to Thaumatology skill level to encourage the study of basic knowledge.

A challenge you may face is that a player may suffer analysis paralysis when preparing their spells. If this happens, the game could get ground to a halt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
What do you think a grimoire does with regard to costs overall? I'm thinking not that much but maybe something. The advantage is that if you already have skill in a college you don't need to train to get a new spell so maybe that outweighs the disadvantage of not having access to every spell and buying?
College-level physics and math textbooks would be a good baseline for grimoire pricing. Prices would be marked up for collections of difficult spells or spells with good earning potential for a mage. And you may need advantages like Security Clearance or Rank (Mages' Guild) to gain access to dangerous spells.

I'm not sure how much it would cost to buy new spells individually.
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Old 06-24-2021, 05:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Spells are skills? Not techniques?

Magery adds to which skill?

You can't spend more Fatigue Points on a spell than your Magery level? That severely limits more powerful effects. Is this intentional? Can you use powerstones or other mana reserves?
I would allow for powerstones or other reserves. The idea is that if you are actually drawing the magic from yourself that is a limit. So if you are very skillful and get a reduced cost then the limit is the cost you pay and not the total points theoretically used. I'm kind of using the idea that people have innate magic which is represented by magery and that they can also draw from the mana in the world too if they are more skillful. I only have one type of mana level so no high or low mana zones. Also this would not apply to ceremonial magic because that is coming from more than just the caster. I mean it applies but it applies individually to each caster who is helping with the spell.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Can you learn spells from a teacher without a grimoire? What about the magical traditions of the illiterate? Are there cunning men and wise women who can't read but can cast spells?
Well any teacher who taught you would have it in his grimoire and would I assume let you copy it into yours. Basically I'm allowing for unlimited spells in your grimoire. The real thing here is just the discovery of new spells being a thing. So you still get skillful at spell casting. It is a skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
It's starting to sound like you're trying to recreate D&D's magic.

Personally, I wouldn't do this. One of the benefits of learning spells as skills is that they're just things you learn to do, not magical patterns you impress on the brain. Unless you are actively trying to recreate D&D magic, I don't see the benefit.
Absolutely you learn and are more skillful with a spell. A grimoire is the only way you have of giving a spell to someone else and for someone else to give you a spell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Typically, the point to including ritual magic in a setting is to have a magical paradigm that supposes that all magic is similar, and casting spells is just a matter of correctly focusing that magic in the right shape. Ritual magic lets you cast magic using defaults. If you block access to any spells but what's in your grimoire, you've kind of removed the whole purpose of ritual magic.

I think it would be a more sensible option if spells were just independent skills without defaults.
Well a ton of the common spells are available and widely traded so a grimoire is not going to be something super hard to populate. I just think some of the more exotic spells might be something you'd quest for and that wizards might jealously guard as their own "secrets".

So with Ritual Magic, as soon as you get a spell you can cast it and if it is one of the basic ones you probably can cast it effectively for basic stuff. The spells that are more advanced you will need to increase the level on because the default won't be good enough. And maybe using techniques for the actual spells is the right way to go. It's why I posted was to get feedback and maybe correct my thinking if I have blind spots.

And your question about what magery adds to is a good one because I realized that if it adds only to Thaumatology then it would only affect the default. So maybe it applies to both Thaumatology and the College skill. Have to think more on it.
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Old 06-24-2021, 05:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald Cat View Post
One issue with this set up is the requirement for mages to have skills for the core skill, college skill, and individual spells. That could end up being a lot of skills for players to keep track of. You'll want to consider whether your players will be able to handle that without stalling the game.
I'm leaning back to making the spells techniques.

I wanted the idea that you have innate magic which is your magery. That is what you are doing when you just pay the cost and deduct if off of Fatigue. So how good you are dictates how big a gulp you can take of magic in a given turn. So perhaps multi-turn spells would get to add magery every turn. If you are skillful then of course that is drawing on surrounding mana as well as your internal reserves. I only have a single mana level in the campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald Cat View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by limiting fatigue expenditures for casting. Could you please elaborate on that?
Just a limit on how much you can draw on magic per turn. This allows for those who dabble in magic to do minor things but not huge things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald Cat View Post
One option would be for mages to cast spells they haven't mastered using their grimoire at the default penalty. But only if they have the right spell formula in their grimoire.

On the other hand, you could simply require the players to find a teacher to learn new spells.
Well I wanted the idea of being able to find spells as a treasure. I intend on many common spells to be widely available. So it won't be a big challenge to get a lot of spells. But I thought perhaps some of the more exotic ones would be rare and harder to find. Wizards might jealously guard their secrets.

Yes, I'm thinking that maybe the spells become techniques and it operates just as you say. You can cast any spell at the default if you know it. The grimoire is just a list of spells that you know. It's the only way you have of communicating your spells to another mage. You don't need it though to use the spells you know on a day to day basis. But you must understand formulae because you can't learn a new spell without the written spell existing somewhere.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald Cat View Post
If you want to do a preparation-based magic system, using one of the systems designed for that like Path/Book may be easier than modifying the standard magic system. I'd recommend setting the limit to Thaumatology skill level to encourage the study of basic knowledge.

A challenge you may face is that a player may suffer analysis paralysis when preparing their spells. If this happens, the game could get ground to a halt.
I am studying all the various approaches in Thaumatology. I may be the pdf of the Ritual path system. I don't necessarily want there to be preparation though. I just want spell formulae to be a thing. So wizards don't get trained in spell casting so much as given the formulae. Now once they have the formulae they need to practice to get good at casting it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald Cat View Post
College-level physics and math textbooks would be a good baseline for grimoire pricing. Prices would be marked up for collections of difficult spells or spells with good earning potential for a mage. And you may need advantages like Security Clearance or Rank (Mages' Guild) to gain access to dangerous spells.

I'm not sure how much it would cost to buy new spells individually.
I will get around to that sort of thing. Some spells probably come with guild membership for example if there is a guild. Others might be available if you join some faction within the guild and promise to support them in the next vote for guildmaster. I will get into the practical aspects of how it works in the world once I get the mechanics decided.

Thanks for the help folks keep it coming. I'm new so be patient. I really am just bouncing ideas and seeing what you think.
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Old 06-24-2021, 05:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
The GURPS magic systems in D&D page touches on how to do what this person seems to want to do:

Energy Reserve (spells): This is a special form of Fatigue that is only for spells and can function as the equivalent of preparing spells. By default it is recovered at the same rate as normal Fatigue and is effected by the Recover Energy spell. This can be combined with a variant of Hang Spell to allow wizards the ability to cast really huge spells via study or meditation.
I'm not trying to recreate the D&D magic system. I am not rejecting every single concept of that system I suppose but I am creating my own variant based on a world concept I have. I am not running D&D because I don't think I can really pull of the concept like I can in GURPS. That is kind of the point of me using GURPS.
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Old 06-24-2021, 08:49 PM   #9
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
I'm not trying to recreate the D&D magic system. I am not rejecting every single concept of that system I suppose but I am creating my own variant based on a world concept I have. I am not running D&D because I don't think I can really pull of the concept like I can in GURPS. That is kind of the point of me using GURPS.
It was just one of the many options there are. I redid the old Classic Knack mechanic like this in 4e:

Magery 2 (-75%: One-Spell Magery, -80%; No Spell Prerequisites, +30%; No Magic Item Sensitivity, -20%; Costs fatigue (1 FP, -5%)) [7] and (adjusting One-Spell Magery accordingly +5% for each spell above one) buy up each spell to 15 using IQ 10. Each (H) spell is [16] and each VH spell is [20] for Magery 2

If one of the spells requires Magery 3 or 4 just use that for all the spells adjusting the relevant spells to 15 accordingly.

So 1 (H), 1 (VH), 1 (H) Magery 3, and 1 (VH) Magery 3 (4 Knacks total) would be Magery 3 (-60%: One-Spell Magery, -80%; No Spell Prerequisites, +30%; No Magic Item Sensitivity, -20%; Costs fatigue (1 FP, -5%); 4 spells, +15%) [9] + [12] + [16] + [12] + [16] or [65]

This, IMHO, in far saner than the method outlined in GURPS Fantasy.

Magery 0 Magic in World Building takes a hard look at what common spell based magic can do to a setting.

Throw in the Fractional Magery idea (base -5 to spells before mana adjustments with +1 for each level of Fractional Magery up to 5 when it beccome Magery 0) and your ETL can go haywire very quickly.
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Old 06-25-2021, 06:16 AM   #10
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Default Re: Magic Guidance Question

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
It was just one of the many options there are. I redid the old Classic Knack mechanic like this in 4e:

Magery 2 (-75%: One-Spell Magery, -80%; No Spell Prerequisites, +30%; No Magic Item Sensitivity, -20%; Costs fatigue (1 FP, -5%)) [7] and (adjusting One-Spell Magery accordingly +5% for each spell above one) buy up each spell to 15 using IQ 10. Each (H) spell is [16] and each VH spell is [20] for Magery 2

If one of the spells requires Magery 3 or 4 just use that for all the spells adjusting the relevant spells to 15 accordingly.

So 1 (H), 1 (VH), 1 (H) Magery 3, and 1 (VH) Magery 3 (4 Knacks total) would be Magery 3 (-60%: One-Spell Magery, -80%; No Spell Prerequisites, +30%; No Magic Item Sensitivity, -20%; Costs fatigue (1 FP, -5%); 4 spells, +15%) [9] + [12] + [16] + [12] + [16] or [65]

This, IMHO, in far saner than the method outlined in GURPS Fantasy.

Magery 0 Magic in World Building takes a hard look at what common spell based magic can do to a setting.

Throw in the Fractional Magery idea (base -5 to spells before mana adjustments with +1 for each level of Fractional Magery up to 5 when it beccome Magery 0) and your ETL can go haywire very quickly.
My way of controlling for magic and not letting it become too common is that if you are not born with magery you cannot cast spells period. So I just have to limit the percentage of the populace who has magery. I would probably treat it as a very special trait so it's not inherited.

I don't have low and high mana zones in my world but the thought did strike me that you could just raise or lower someone's magery based on the mana zone and that would fit my idea. In a low zone if it reduces magery by 1 then you can't cast at all if your magery is 1. In a high zone, you can cast more powerful spells because your effective magery is greater.

Edit:
I went and read your linked blog post. Nice. I agree if magic is commonplace and low cost then the world is a far different place than most fantasy worlds present it.

Last edited by Emerikol; 06-25-2021 at 06:28 AM.
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