IQ gain and free talents?

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by zot

One alternative might be to make every IQ point above 8 count for 2 TP. This gives starting characters more TP but the same IQ is always worth the same TP.

Upside: This mitigates what I call the renaissance idiot problem. Low IQ characters have little to spend their IQ on so they tend to have spare points to make themselves well-rounded. High IQ characters have so many items on their menu that they're inevitably desperately short of points. IQ 8 characters have a desultory menu an can almost certainly afford to pick up something extra just for the lolz.

Issue: It makes IQ better, and IQ is already quite good. If there's an attribute that is suffering at the moment it's ST. You might consider making this IQ+2 attribute cost more.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by zot

The main hole I see in this is that if two characters have the same IQ but started with different IQs, the one that started with a lower IQ will have more talent points.

That bugged me at first, but as it sank in I got comfortable with it. In my example of Bran and Mak that's just what happens: the one with the lower starting IQ ends up surpassing the other one in TP.

But they each picked the starting position they wanted (the Attributes they settled on before ever appearing in play) and when the gun sounded they each ran in the direction they chose. One got to more ST, and whatever comes with that (more hit points, more weapon damage), and the other got more IQ, and whatever comes with that (in this case, the 2 extra TP). They weren't forced to make those choices, they each considered the value of what they wanted, weighed their options, and self-determination ruled. Hence I'm content with it.

While the "weaker" character was picking up 2 more ST, the "dumber" character got 2 TP ahead of him.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Issue: It makes IQ better, and IQ is already quite good. If there's an attribute that is suffering at the moment it's ST. You might consider making this IQ+2 attribute cost more.

Well enough, but for my part keeping the XP cost for increasing an attribute the same for all attributes is a linchpin in the game balance.

IQ actually becomes weakened a bit by the newer Legacy ITL rules, because it ends up competing not only with the other two attributes, but with talent points as well all vying for those precious XP.

Another solution might be to make TP it's own attribute, but once there's a 4th attribute it just isn't TFT anymore. That'd be a can of worms.

But another solution that could be considered is awarding one talent point for increasing any of the attributes, not just IQ. Makes some sense that you pick up talents at whatever rate you're progressing overall. Then though talents have to be decoupled from starting IQ or it's back to the temptation to start the figure at a really high IQ because that's your only chance to have more talents than average. You fix that by making every character start with a fixed number of TP, but then the new problem becomes every character will have the same quantity of talents as any other at the same attribute total. Might as well be playing whack-a-mole!

That vicious circle can be escaped by reverting to the old way, keeping talent points locked to current IQ, whether using a ratio of 1:1, 1:2, or as I'm opting to do, a mixed strategy of 1:1 at character build, then 1:2 thereafter.

[TippetsTX]

Howdy Steve, while I support and share your goals, at the end of the day your proposal feels like a step backwards. Classic TFT was/is a great game, but it has to be allowed to evolve. Legacy began this process, though TBH, it's too full of over-corrections and half-measures for my taste. Though I also struggled with the concept initially, the first thing I had to let go of is the idea that attributes must stay in sync with XP. Legacy has dropped that assumption, which I think is for the best. Now you spend XP on attributes OR talents OR spells OR mana OR whatever, which opens the door for more player choice and character options IMO. Two characters who have earned the same 3000 XP can now look very different.

The second issue, arguably more difficult to reconcile, is that IQ matters during character creation, but afterwards, not so much... except for the arbitrary IQ tiers established as progression barriers, but I'm going to set that aside for now. Our bias, then, is that if IQ dictates your available talent/spell pool once that it must do so always. That feels like a bit of a false equivalency to me though, since there are plenty of game systems that use different rules for character creation vs. character progression. So once again, if we can accept that disparity, I think it opens the door to more interesting design possibilities.

Admittedly, that's my own bias talking, however. ;)

[zot]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Howdy Steve, while I support and share your goals, at the end of the day your proposal feels like a step backwards. Classic TFT was/is a great game, but it has to be allowed to evolve. Legacy began this process, though TBH, it's too full of over-corrections and half-measures for my taste. Though I also struggled with the concept initially, the first thing I had to let go of is the idea that attributes must stay in sync with XP. Legacy has dropped that assumption, which I think is for the best. Now you spend XP on attributes OR talents OR spells OR mana OR whatever, which opens the door for more player choice and character options IMO. Two characters who have earned the same 3000 XP can now look very different.

The second issue, arguably more difficult to reconcile, is that IQ matters during character creation, but afterwards, not so much... except for the arbitrary IQ tiers established as progression barriers, but I'm going to set that aside for now. Our bias, then, is that if IQ dictates your available talent/spell pool once that it must do so always. That feels like a bit of a false equivalency to me though, since there are plenty of game systems that use different rules for character creation vs. character progression. So once again, if we can accept that disparity, I think it opens the door to more interesting design possibilities.

Admittedly, that's my own bias talking, however. ;)

The house rules I favored before Legacy set talent points at IQ + average(ST, DX). Looks like maybe Andrew Morris came up with this? Or at least he was the curator.

I like these because they balance the mental and the physical and they favor neither brawn nor finesse.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Howdy Steve, while I support and share your goals, at the end of the day your proposal feels like a step backwards.

Thank you Tippets, I very much appreciate all of your viewpoints!

Hehe... you could call it a huge step backwards. It went from 1 TP earned per IQ increase (original) to zero TP per IQ (Legacy) and here I go and suggest 2 TP per IQ. I am crazy.

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Two characters who have earned the same 3000 XP can now look very different.

I think I can see characters diverging from each other just as much if not more, letting them earn 2 talent points per IQ if they want to. Some will take the road of bigger ST and/or DX attributes, others can decide to go talent-heavy instead, and among the talent-heavy there could be huge differences in which talents those folk take.

My suggestion was 2 free TP with each IQ increase, but it could just as well be looked at as 1 free IQ point with every 2 talent points purchased. So your XP spending choices are still ST, DX, and talent points, with IQ just catching a free ride with the talent purchases. If IQ isn't that important in and of itself, then getting some free with the purchase of talents shouldn't be a big deal. And the talent points are still only costing half as much per point as an attribute increase, you just have to buy them in pairs. They'll cost more than 500 XP each nearer the end of a PC's career, but they'll cost much less than 500 each during the early career. Guess I should do the math to see how much advantage or disadvantage that works out to be in the long haul.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Thank you Tippets, I very much appreciate all of your viewpoints!

Hehe... you could call it a huge step backwards. It went from 1 TP earned per IQ increase (original) to zero TP per IQ (Legacy) and here I go and suggest 2 TP per IQ. I am crazy.

And I appreciate your good humor. I was afraid that my post may have come across as overly critical which really wasn't my intent.

At the end of the day, I don't think our goals are all that dissimilar, only our approaches. Mine is admittedly more radical... eliminating IQ prerequisites for talents and spells, replacing accessibility for the same with a more holistic view of character progression (i.e character tiers). The character's initial capacity for those skills is still tethered to IQ, but once gameplay starts it's all about the XP and purchasing one kind of character attribute shouldn't automatically grant a pool for another IMO.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I was afraid that my post may have come across as overly critical which really wasn't my intent.

Impossible! I always find your posts to be great fun, so never worry about that!

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Mine is admittedly more radical... eliminating IQ prerequisites for talents and spells, replacing accessibility for the same with a more holistic view of character progression (i.e character tiers)...

Haha... my next crazy scheme is to eliminate IQ levels for spells, but not for talents. I'd broken up my original Wizardry Talent into 6 separate talents (at IQs 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, and 24 respectively) each of which unlocks the spells within IQ ranges (among other fun, progressive advantages). So why not just dump the IQ tag attached to every spell, sort them into 6 lists corresponding to the 6 magic-user talents, and just call them levels or tiers for wizards. If you have the 3rd wizardry talent, your spells can come from list 3 or below. It's kind of tempting!

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

it could just as well be looked at as 1 free IQ point with every 2 talent points purchased.

I wrote something once that could be seen as a generalisation of that. Each talent had a price in ST, DX and IQ talent points. So fighters with high ST and DX ended up with lots of ST/DXish talents, which a high IQ character would end up with lots of IQish talents. A justification could be that the training needed for talents also helped develop the attributes. It's basically the same idea but all three attributes rather than just IQ.

I think the system would have worked but I'm not sure it was a good idea. It restricted the choices available to players, forcing characters into a narrower range of possibilities, making decisions for them, and that's not a good thing.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

My suggestion was 2 free Talent Points with each IQ increase, [making talent points] cost more than 500 XP each nearer the end of a PC's career, but they'll cost much less than 500 each during the early career. Guess I should do the math to see how much advantage or disadvantage that works out to be...

Being a glutton for punishment, I did do the math -- a spreadsheet actually.

38 total attributes is the break-even point. Below 38 points total, the talent points work out to be cheaper than the ITL cost of 500 XP each. Above 38 they cost more. Going from 37 to 38 costs 1000 XP (RAW) and comes with 2 talent points, hence the cost works out to 500 each, identical to the RAW at that point. From start to "finish", a 32 point figure spends only 100 XP for a pair of talent points(!) but a 40 point character has to spend 4000 for the same. Adding 16 talent points in a PC's career costs 8000 XP under the RAW, and 8300 XP this way - almost identical.

So if you ever thought 500 XP per point was too expensive for a starting character, and too cheap for a highly advanced one, this rule may work for you. Since the prices are tied to the cost of attribute increases, they'll adjust themselves automatically if you use your own, tweaked attribute costs without having to even think about it.

For my taste it may be a little too generous at the lowest end, but for such a short and simple house rule it tweaks a bunch of issues at once.