Technical question about alternate abilities and compartmentalized mind

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

[EDIT]
Right... this is a case of warring Editors and biased readings (on our parts):


In this case PK explicitly rules opposite of Kromm's "it's basically mentally Duplication" ruling.

For my money, on this issue, I've always agreed with PK.
[/EDIT]

So, basically it depends on the GM (much like most other such rulings). For me, I agree with Kromm, but only due to the cost of Compartmentalized Mind. If you can't do that, then CM is too expensive, IMHO.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

So, basically it depends on the GM (much like most other such rulings). For me, I agree with Kromm, but only due to the cost of Compartmentalized Mind. If you can't do that, then CM is too expensive, IMHO.

I disagree. Think about it, why should CM provide for a discount? Especially such a massive one.
If you buy TK or a power that can be used with a Concentrate you do get to use it multiple times. But if the ability is disabled or inactive - such as by being swapped out you dont get to use it.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by BillNormal

I took compartmentalized mind and extra attack to use TK effectively twice a round.

One level of Compartmentalized Mind already does that: you can do Concentrate twice and each Concentrate gives you an entire TK maneuver.

You don't need "extra attack" and I don't think that would be of any use with Telekinesis itself, only for using your Innate Attack (which I assume is Crushing Attack).

You may as well take Extra Attack as an alternative ability to Compartmentalized Mind since it's not likely you'll be using both at the same time.

You can switch to EA when using Crushing Attack and switch to CM when using Telekinesis.

Originally Posted by BillNormal

My GM says I can only use the same use of my psychokinetics twice, i.e. two innate attacks, OR concentrate on DR twice OR enhance my move, but I can't mix and match them. This seems utterly rediculous to me. I can't maintain my force field while shooting TK pebbles, because both are from the same alternate ability 'bundle'. It's so debilitatingly removed from the character concept that it becomes not really worth paying.

Is my GM wrong, or do I have to go about paying for that... differently... ?

If you want to use more than one kind of alternative ability simultaneously, the rules for that are at PU8p8

"pay full price for the two most expensive abilities (and 1/5 cost for the rest)"

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

So, basically it depends on the GM (much like most other such rulings). For me, I agree with Kromm, but only due to the cost of Compartmentalized Mind. If you can't do that, then CM is too expensive, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Refplace

I disagree. Think about it, why should CM provide for a discount? Especially such a massive one.
If you buy TK or a power that can be used with a Concentrate you do get to use it multiple times. But if the ability is disabled or inactive - such as by being swapped out you dont get to use it.

I'm not sure I follow what you two are discussing, but does it have something to do with "No Mental Separation" in Psionic Powers?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm not sure I follow what you two are discussing, but does it have something to do with "No Mental Separation" in Psionic Powers?

The question in the thread was basically does having CM bypass the drawback that gives you the price discount for alternative abilities.
We had it pretty much settled till the FAQ Keeper popped in :)

CM definitely lets you use an ability twice. So if you had a qualifying power, even if it was part of an alternative ability group you can use it multiple times.
However it wont let you freely swap between the powers in an AA set.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by BillNormal

I'm a psychokineticist (4e). I have 13 levels of TK, innate attacks, DR, & enhanced move in there. I took compartmentalized mind and extra attack to use TK effectively twice a round. My GM says I can only use the same use of my psychokinetics twice, i.e. two innate attacks, OR concentrate on DR twice OR enhance my move, but I can't mix and match them. This seems utterly rediculous to me. I can't maintain my force field while shooting TK pebbles, because both are from the same alternate ability 'bundle'. It's so debilitatingly removed from the character concept that it becomes not really worth paying.
Is my GM wrong, or do I have to go about paying for that... differently... ? I can't conceive paying for multiple 'bundles', because all of these advantages are from the same source... I mean I thought compartmentalized mind let's me read poetry and write a scientific dissertation at the same time... Just... If there not bundled in an alternate ability?

You would have to go about paying for it differently.

Compartmentalized Mind should not allow you to activate Telekinesis (AA-mode 1), switch to an alternate power and then activate Damage Resistance (AA-mode 2, *1/5 cost) with Telekinesis (AA-mode 1) also staying active and under your control. Telekinesis (AA-mode 1) should de-activate if you switch to Damage Resistance (AA-mode 2, *1/5 cost).

Summary:

• mode-1 = active + mode-2 = not-active = okay
• mode-1 = not-active + mode-2 = active = okay
• mode-1 = active + mode-2 = active = not-okay

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Uh... Vicky, that doesn't exactly answer the question being asked.

It does say 'does it effectively give me another X instances of my (mental) abilities?' is answered 'yes'. I.e. you have two instances of Telekinesis, or Innate Attack or the like. This is also demonstrated in a published PDF:

Originally Posted by Psionic Powers, page 13

Each “compartment” wields psi independent of the others.
Penalties for multiple feats and repeated attempts (p. 6) only
apply to the compartment that incurs them. If one fails to pick
up a thug, another can try it at no penalty. Similarly, since a psi
with TK Grab 15 (BL 45 lbs.) can lift a maximum of 360 lbs.,
each compartment can lift up to that amount – with
Compartmentalized Mind 3, he could lift four separate 360 lb.
objects or a single 1,440 lb. one. (Remember to add together
the BLs, not the power level, as per p. B353.)

The existence of two instances implies that they can be switched independently.

[BillNormal]

Originally Posted by Plane

One level of Compartmentalized Mind already does that: you can do Concentrate twice and each Concentrate gives you an entire TK maneuver.
You don't need "extra attack" and I don't think that would be of any use with Telekinesis itself, only for using your Innate Attack (which I assume is Crushing Attack).
You may as well take Extra Attack as an alternative ability to Compartmentalized Mind since it's not likely you'll be using both at the same time.
You can switch to EA when using Crushing Attack and switch to CM when using Telekinesis.

If you want to use more than one kind of alternative ability simultaneously, the rules for that are at PU8p8

"pay full price for the two most expensive abilities (and 1/5 cost for the rest)"
I'm not sure I follow what you two are discussing, but does it have something to do with "No Mental Separation" in Psionic Powers?

You are my hero! This is exactly what I wanted!
Special thank you for saving me the points on extra attack.
It took a good Google search to figure out the puzzle "PU8p8", but it was a fun and rewarding experience.

And a shout out to vicky_molokh: I wish my GM agreed with you. but he's more a RAW kinda fellow.

I march forward to this Sunday's game; confident in my abilities and my character.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It does say 'does it effectively give me another X instances of my (mental) abilities?' is answered 'yes'. I.e. you have two instances of Telekinesis, or Innate Attack or the like. This is also demonstrated in a published PDF:

The existence of two instances implies that they can be switched independently.

That's not incompatible with an inactive slot in an AA not being an ability *right now* and so not able to have another instance *right now*.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The existence of two instances implies that they can be switched independently.

"Implies" is sure getting the workout in that sentence... and clearly a number of us, including PK, disagree that it implies any such thing.

Personally I see no reason why it should supplant Duplication (Mental Only). They do different things.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It does say 'does it effectively give me another X instances of my (mental) abilities?' is answered 'yes'.

The question is whether these are instances of the ability, or an independent instance of the entire AA group.

GURPS rules aren't written to be literally parsed, but an AA is a group of abilities, not an ability. One ability of that group can be active.

CM can "duplicate" that ability in instances -- if you want to use that language. (I'd just say CM simply gives you multiple Maneuvers -- the mental ATR comparison. And just by bog-standard rules, you can use any ability you have in each Maneuver you have; you need nothing special about an ability to do that.)

Whether or not CM really duplicates the ability, as opposed to the Maneuvers, will matter in any case where there are Limitations that affect uses, like Requires Reload, cooldowns, or (Immediate) Prep Required. There is an actual mechanical implication there, beyond just a metaphor for visualizing the effect.

Finally, we get back to the OP question: what about an AA? Assuming CM duplicates all your abilities, does that also mean duplicating the AAs (just like Duplication would do) so that each "mind dupe" can have independent selection? Similarly, if some Limitation or enemy effect takes out your AA group by taking out your current ability, does that mean all the duplicated AA groups get taken or, or just the one that was "hit" by the Limitation or effect? When applicable, do you have to Prep each ability independently (which can be done in parallel if you're munchkin-careful to specify prep fluff that's mental only, but would get serialized if you slip up and include any physical actions like lighting incense for your meditation, a problem your Dupes don't have to worry about).

Comparison with Duplication strikes me as a better argument that Dupe is underpriced than an argument that CM should give you more. (Consider the similar comparison of Dupe with ATR; Dupe also gives you extra physical Maneuvers, as each dupe gets to act independently. Do we need to buff up ATR to justify its cost, or raise the cost of Duplication to account for its disruption of the Maneuver economy?