[magic] casting spells of unknown cost

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Yeah, and I've heard similar sentiments from other groups that have either tried it, considered it or allow it as a theoretical option.

Been there and made that decision myself. I wasn't interested in casting one 30 energy spell every 4 days.

The basic structure of the standard Magic spells favors versatility over high power/low frequency. If you took Threshold and Calamity and put them on some other sort of magic the result might be more natural.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Plane

1) Except I think in the case of Burning HP, pretty sure you need to specify how much HP you'll burn ahead of time and you don't get that back even if you roll a crit success and didn't need to spend any energy at all.

That's no tthe intent at all.

On a crit you don't actually spend any energy, even if you had a ridiculous penalty from Burning HP.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The intent behind critical success is completely different. It's a link between the roll to cast and the results of casting, so it's quite clearly applicable only to the energy you had riding on the dice roll to cast, and thus to casting. On the other hand, it's all energy and not just personal FP . . . and it's a case of "never spent in the first place," not regeneration.

This is from a PMed question I sent Kromm last year to clarify the intent differences between crits and Very High Mana Zones. (There might be a thread about it lurking somewhere in the forums, dated mid September.)

The difference: In a VHM burned HP doesn't come back, the mage only regains spent FP.

That or at least you have to suffer the spell penalty as if you burned HP even if you didn't because that could cause weird feedback loops.

Yes, that's the intent, you roll and then pay, your end skill level doesn't shift just because you suddenly didn't suffer any HP burn.

And ues, Missile Spells are odd spells in this regard, which is why I always require the Player to declare how much are they spending in advance, or in the case of an unknown quantity, how much are they willing to spend.

Stops that "Oh, I crit'ed... I, ahhh, I was going to spend all my FP on that Fireball... yeah, that's the ticket..." from occurring (when they've always done the minimums prior).

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

And ues, Missile Spells are odd spells in this regard, which is why I always require the Player to declare how much are they spending in advance, or in the case of an unknown quantity, how much are they willing to spend.

Stops that "Oh, I crit'ed... I, ahhh, I was going to spend all my FP on that Fireball... yeah, that's the ticket..." from occurring (when they've always done the minimums prior).

My SOP is that failure on the part of the player to declare every parameter of the spell they're casting, at the point of that first Concentrate action, constitutes failure to cast the spell. I really do not want to have to be pulling teeth in the "And how many dice are you putting into it? And who precisely is this Ice Sphere targeting? ..." camp.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

That's no tthe intent at all.

We don't really know the original intentions since there isn't an example of this cenario in play.

Originally Posted by mburr0003

This is from a PMed question I sent Kromm last year to clarify the intent differences between crits and Very High Mana Zones. (There might be a thread about it lurking somewhere in the forums, dated mid September.)

The difference: In a VHM burned HP doesn't come back, the mage only regains spent FP.

What I'm remembering is this 2005 quote Nikolai gave from Kromm at http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=12

"When you burn HP to cast a spell, you always lose the HP. It's only FP costs that are reduced to 1 FP on a failure."

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Yes, that's the intent, you roll and then pay, your end skill level doesn't shift just because you suddenly didn't suffer any HP burn.

Sounds like you still burned the HP even if it fails and you only pay 1 energy instead of full energy.

I prefer it being that the HP doesn't get burned but the penalty was applied as if you did.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

"And who precisely is this Ice Sphere targeting? ..." camp.

I'm fine with that waiting until they target it, after all with Missile Spells they can cast it hours before even having a target.

Originally Posted by Plane

"When you burn HP to cast a spell, you always lose the HP. It's only FP costs that are reduced to 1 FP on a failure."

Spell failure costs are different than costs under High Mana are different than costs with a critical success. That's just the very odd way it is.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Frankly Counterspell was borderline useless to start with and has needed a rewrite ever since the number of spells were expanded from the first edition of Fantasy. I don't know that I've ever seen anybody use it, the combat useful defense is Ward, and if you have time you go with Dispel (neither of which charge by spell cost).

Counterspell has three uses. First of all, it lets you dispel one spell without disrupting others. Secondly, it works on spells that are unaffected by dispel magic (it's much faster than remove curse, and usually cheaper). Third, it's much cheaper than dispel magic on large area spells with a low base cost, such as weather spells.

All are pretty marginal uses.

On the original question, the Banish spell specifically discusses unknown costs. It's not clear whether that's supposed to be the way all spells work, though.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Secondly, it works on spells that are unaffected by dispel magic (it's much faster than remove curse, and usually cheaper).

Though in some cases only a Remove Curse will do, like M130 specifies "Suspend Magery can only be removed by Remove Curse" so presumably it is immune to Counterspell and maybe even Dispel Magic?

We see similar language for Oath (M130) and Lesser Geas (M140) and Great Geas (M141) and Slow Healing (M153) and possibly Plant Form (M164) and Plant Form Other (M165)

Does anyone think Counterspell would work on Flesh to Ice (M190) ? It talks about using Stone to Flesh at a -4 penalty which can be avoided if the caster of STF knows FTI too, and that Remove Curse can also break it.

Flesh to Ice is a "Permanent until reversed by another spell" and it mentions two spells that will, but doesn't necessarily say they're the ONLY ones...

[edk926]

Even though it isn't mentioned, I feel Suspend/Remove Curse was designed to be the only way to reverse permanent spells (save for Wish spells) unless specifically declared otherwise. So I'd say there is no other spell that can handle it. Given the energy costs of some of the permanent spells, it would be a rip-off if any mage with Counterspell or Dispel Magic could just remove them.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Plane

Does anyone think Counterspell would work on Flesh to Ice (M190) ? It talks about using Stone to Flesh at a -4 penalty which can be avoided if the caster of STF knows FTI too, and that Remove Curse can also break it.

No. Beyond edk926's comment, I think there's a distinction at work. Many spells impose a magical constraint on their targets ... it's ongoing, it's a magical effect, it's held on by magic.

Spells like Flesh to Ice, by contrast, impose a permanent change of being: it's not a person any more, it's a giant ice cube. Not only is there nothing to cancel out, the text of Counterspell is explicit: "It cannot "counter" spells that make a permanent change in the world ..."

[Plane]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

No. Beyond edk926's comment, I think there's a distinction at work. Many spells impose a magical constraint on their targets ... it's ongoing, it's a magical effect, it's held on by magic.

Spells like Flesh to Ice, by contrast, impose a permanent change of being: it's not a person any more, it's a giant ice cube. Not only is there nothing to cancel out, the text of Counterspell is explicit: "It cannot "counter" spells that make a permanent change in the world ..."

Good point so basically CS is for stuff with finite durations that get maintained, similar to Suspend Spell?