Parring unarmed attack modifiers?

[steflomase]

Hello guys. I need things to be clarified and i can't find it by myself.
For example i have situation where someone parry unarmed attack and succsed. And asume he was get hit before so he have Shock penalty. Is this penalty affects skill roll on hit when he try to hit limb after parry?

And one more. One man grap another and trying to hit him with free hand, hand or leg. Defender parries his hit. Does -4 DX penalty affect his combat skill to strike his limb?
There is rule for this in BS421 that says
"Defensive reactions that don’t require a maneuver to perform – active defenses, resistance rolls, Fright Checks, etc. – never suffer penalties for attribute reductions"
Does this attempt to attack counts for that exception?

[Boge]

SHOCK B419
Whenever you suffer injury,
reduce your DX and IQ by the number
of HP you lost – to a maximum
penalty of -4, regardless of your
injuries – on your next turn only.


Shouldn't this say "until the end of your next turn only"? I've always played it as I suffer shock until the end of my next turn.

Anyway, it's pretty simple. If you take damage, you suffer a penalty equal to the damage you took up to a maximum of -4. So if that character was trying to attack someone on their next turn, they would have up to a -4 to hit on their next turn.

If the defender successfully defended with a parry, the defender doesn't suffer any shock penalty at all. It's only if they take damage.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by steflomase

For example i have situation where someone parry unarmed attack and succsed. And asume he was get hit before so he have Shock penalty. Is this penalty affects skill roll on hit when he try to hit limb after parry?

I'd say yes. The shock penalty not applying to defenses is more of a game-balance thing (otherwise you get a pretty nasty death spiral), or possibly even a simplicity thing (as the penalty would apply to skill, and defense is based on half skill, requiring a minor recalculation), and a free attack (as you get when Parrying an unarmed attack with a weapon) is still an attack.

Originally Posted by steflomase

And one more. One man grap another and trying to hit him with free hand, hand or leg. Defender parries his hit. Does -4 DX penalty affect his combat skill to strike his limb?

I'd say yes. Again, a free attack is still an attack, not a defense. Although personally, I'd penalize the character's defense as well (at -2, due to being based on half skill), unless he's using a Grappling skill to defend.

[steflomase]

Boge
I think you dont get what is my question or i your answer. Its all clear with shock and attacks. The thing is there is a rule "Parrying Unarmed Attacks" BS376 that says if you parry any unarmed attack you may roll against you skill to injure your attacker.

Varyon
You have a point. But still is this counts as independet attack or part of defender parry action? I don't realy sure here.
If it's independent the penalty should apply but if it's not?

[Plane]

Originally Posted by steflomase

Hello guys.
I need things to be clarified and i can't find it by myself.
For example i have situation where
someone parry unarmed attack and succsed.

I take this to mean something like "I'm holding a sword, someone tried to punch me, I parried the fist's punch with my sword"

Originally Posted by steflomase

And asume he was get hit before so he have Shock penalty.
Is this penalty affects skill roll on hit when he try to hit limb after parry?

That's an interesting question.
The DX penalty is known to apply to attacks but for some reason not defenses.
IE if I have a Low Pain Threshold and get hit for 4 injury, I am -8 to punch a foe but -0 to parry him.

While the parry roll itself would not be penalized, it seems feasible that the followup roll to hit the limb you get on a successful parry might be, since it's like an attack.

If that is the case though it might create a balance problem with combining these into a single roll like Technical Grappling does for Grabbing Parry.

Originally Posted by steflomase

And one more.
One man grap another and trying to hit him with free hand, hand or leg.
Defender parries his hit.
Does -4 DX penalty affect his combat skill to strike his limb?
There is rule for this in BS421 that says
"Defensive reactions that don’t require a maneuver to perform – active defenses, resistance rolls, Fright Checks, etc. – never suffer penalties for attribute reductions"
Does this attempt to attack counts for that exception?

This one is easier to answer: GURPS Martial Arts altered the B421 rule on MA121 ("Defense While Grappling"): DX penalties resulting from grappling DO impact active defenses: resulting in -2 to parry / -2 to block / -1 to dodge.

Given that, I think that yes, you would also be -4 DX on the attack roll if your parry (at -2) succeeds.

There doesn't seem any retcon like MA121 for shock, but it'd work great as a house rule.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by steflomase

For example i have situation where someone parry unarmed attack and succsed. And asume he was get hit before so he have Shock penalty. Is this penalty affects skill roll on hit when he try to hit limb after parry?

Assuming I read this correctly, you're asking "Does a defender, who was previously hit by a different attack, and successfully uses a weapon to parry an unarmed attack, suffers Shock penalties (p. B419) to his weapon skill roll to inflict damage on the attacker's limb."

In that case, the answer is YES. Any Shock penalties which currently apply to the defender's weapon skill apply to the roll to hit to convert the parry defense into a solid hit on the attacker's limb. Otherwise, the weapon just deflects the attacker's limb without damaging it.

Per p.421, Shock penalties don't apply to the defender's Parry defense, however.

Originally Posted by steflomase

One man grap another and trying to hit him with free hand, hand or leg. Defender parries his hit. Does -4 DX penalty affect his combat skill to strike his limb? There is rule for this in BS421 that says "Defensive reactions that don’t require a maneuver to perform – active defenses, resistance rolls, Fright Checks, etc. – never suffer penalties for attribute reductions" Does this attempt to attack counts for that exception?

Assuming that your question is, "On your previous turn you've grappled a foe using one of your limbs. On your current turn you're trying to strike the same foe with another body part, but the defender successfully Parries your attacking limb using a weapon held in a free hand. Does the defender suffer penalties for attempting to use the grappled limb to parry you or to their skill roll to convert the parry into a successful attack against the striking body part?"

My answer would be NO. The attacker can't make an unarmed Parry with the grappled body part because it's not free. He would need to make a successful Break Free maneuver to free his limb before he could Parry.

If he's parrying using his "off-hand" (or a weapon held in that hand) he suffers a -2 penalty to Parry (p. B549), but no penalty for being grappled since that limb isn't grappled.

Assuming that the defender isn't currently suffering from Shock penalties, he would have no penalties (or just a -4 penalty for attacking with the off-hand) to his skill roll convert a successful weapon Parry attempt into a successful attack.

As a house rule, you might allow the defender to attempt an weapon Parry using a weapon held in a grappled arm at -2 to his roll. But, if the Parry succeeds, the defender suffers the full -4 penalty to use the grappled arm to convert the parry into a successful counterattack.

[Boge]

I didn't understand the defender was parrying an unarmed attack with a weapon.

I still wonder though, the rules say on "your next turn". Isn't the parried attack still on the attacker's turn? I'm not sure the person parrying the attack actually gets a "turn" for the parry attack. If that was the case, then on his turn he wouldn't have shock anymore, right?

I would rule that the defender doesn't suffer the shock penalty as it's not his turn. The "attack" is the result of a successful parry. He isn't actually swinging his weapon for an attack.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Boge

I still wonder though, the rules say on "your next turn". Isn't the parried attack still on the attacker's turn? I'm not sure the person parrying the attack actually gets a "turn" for the parry attack. If that was the case, then on his turn he wouldn't have shock anymore, right?

I would rule that the defender doesn't suffer the shock penalty as it's not his turn. The "attack" is the result of a successful parry. He isn't actually swinging his weapon for an attack.

Any vagueness in Basic about either duration and what rolls shock affects was clarified by the FAQ http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.4.5.2

"take shock penalties the moment you get hurt, and suffer them until the end of your next turn"

"All other DX or IQ rolls." (besides Active Defense and Resistance)

It even affects DX rolls to avoid falling down (despite that being kinda defensey/resisty in nature) UNLESS that roll results from suffering Knockback from the same attack which caused the shocking injury.

[steflomase]

My bad i thought my qestions was clear.
First case is excactly as Pursuivant write.

Does a defender, who was previously hit by a different attack, and successfully uses a weapon to parry an unarmed attack, suffers Shock penalties (p. B419) to his weapon skill roll to inflict damage on the attacker's limb.

Second one is the next.
On my previous turn i successfully grappled foe torso, that gives -4 DX BS370 ( or if i use All-Out Attack for grap and hit foe in one turn). On my next turn foe still in grap and i hiting him with my free limb, he succed parry my attack with weapon and wants to injure my limb. To do this he should roll against his weapon skill. So the question is does this -4 DX applies to his weapon skill roll?

[Boge]

Originally Posted by Plane

Any vagueness in Basic about either duration and what rolls shock affects was clarified by the FAQ http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.4.5.2

"take shock penalties the moment you get hurt, and suffer them until the end of your next turn"

"All other DX or IQ rolls." (besides Active Defense and Resistance)

It even affects DX rolls to avoid falling down (despite that being kinda defensey/resisty in nature) UNLESS that roll results from suffering Knockback from the same attack which caused the shocking injury.

Awesome. Thanks for clarifying.