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Old 11-04-2013, 04:52 PM   #11
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post
I've heard fine mail touted as nearly uncuttable and medium plate and neigh impenetrable except by the very few weapons designed to have an AD. But those only have DR 4 and 6 respectively. They get punctured routinely in play even with the new blunt trauma rules.

Sure, I can tell my players to stack 60 - 100 lbs of armor on their characters and have them encounter NPCs with the same. But is that really what is being referred to when people around here keep saying how tough armor is?
In real life people who can easily lift 40lbs in one hand can't also swing a baseball bat with the same force of a bullet from an automatic pistol. The damage table is the problem.
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Just because it isn't cut doesn't mean the person hit doesn't suffer any injury. EDIT: I'll note that I haven't seen the claims you're referencing about how armor is impenetrable.
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

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Just because it isn't cut doesn't mean the person hit doesn't suffer any injury.
This. And realistically, the classic "unstoppable" medieval fighter -- i.e., a knight -- is going to have between 60 and 100 pounds of armor. It may sound excessive, but it's practical. (A light suit for many knights was 50 pounds; Dan Howard can correct me if I've gotten bad facts.)

And before you look at Strength damage, look at Strength values, too. What kind of opposition are they going against? Not every opponent is going to be a ST 14 warrior with a broadsword or battleaxe. The average person is average, and even the average fighter is usually going to be 11-12 tops. Sure, the PCs are going to meet plenty of non-average people ... but those are the ones most able to get through your defenses, too.
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Old 11-04-2013, 04:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
ST-based damage isn't really based on anything and is too high relative to firearms (and therefore armor). It's too much of a pain to rescale for me to do it, but if I was going to I'd probably keep ST 10 the same with +1/-1 to thr at ST 1, ST 5, ST 15 and ST 20 and +1/-1 to SW at ST 1, ST 3, ST5, ST 8, ST 13, ST 15, ST 18 and ST 20 (giving 1d thr 2d sw at ST 20).
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The problem is the damage system, ST14 shouldn't do double damage compared to ST10.
Yeah, this seems to be the solution put forth by half the people. It might be the answer. But I'm resistant for two reasons. Firstly, I'm pretty sure it would displease all the players at my table. And secondly, at first glance at least it appears to unrealistically nerf the effects of weapons on unarmored foes.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
In real life people who can easily lift 40lbs in one hand can't also swing a baseball bat with the same force of a bullet from an automatic pistol. The damage table is the problem.
These discussions tend to come back to bullets. Couldn't the problem be firearm damage? That optional rule (in Pyramid I think) that suggested dividing bullet damage by 2 and adding AD (2) seemed to me to remove that entire argument quite tidily. But as I said in my OP, for LT armor I'm not presently concerned with firearms.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

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These discussions tend to come back to bullets. Couldn't the problem be firearm damage? That optional rule (in Pyramid I think) that suggested dividing bullet damage by 2 and adding AD (2) seemed to me to remove that entire argument quite tidily. But as I said in my OP, for LT armor I'm not presently concerned with firearms.
DR is based on 1 inch of RHA=DR 70. Firearm damage is based on directly on KE. DR doesn't use a different scale for melee weapons but damage does.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
This. And realistically, the classic "unstoppable" medieval fighter -- i.e., a knight -- is going to have between 60 and 100 pounds of armor. It may sound excessive, but it's practical. (A light suit for many knights was 50 pounds; Dan Howard can correct me if I've gotten bad facts.)
It might just be this. If so, I'll just continue and I'm sorry if I wasted anyone's time.
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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
And before you look at Strength damage, look at Strength values, too. What kind of opposition are they going against? Not every opponent is going to be a ST 14 warrior with a broadsword or battleaxe. The average person is average, and even the average fighter is usually going to be 11-12 tops. Sure, the PCs are going to meet plenty of non-average people ... but those are the ones most able to get through your defenses, too.
Absolutely. If you look at my numbers, you will find that this isn't the problem. The ST 14 guy is quite rare. But even ST 11-12 with a cheap mace or axe can penetrate mail or plate.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

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And secondly, at first glance at least it appears to unrealistically nerf the effects of weapons on unarmored foes.
Under current rules, fist-fights are over in seconds, with participants *dead*. Can you kill someone with a punch? Yeah. But the odds are low enough that you should assume that a critical hit was involved.

Or look at a large knife. In the hands of a ST 11 mugger, a large knife does 1d+1 imp (AoA assumed). A good chance of a death check in 2 hits, near guarantee in 3. Without even considering bleeding. I'm too lazy to refresh my memory of the knifing data, but people survive it. Most of the time.

Current ST-based damage is simply way too high.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
This. And realistically, the classic "unstoppable" medieval fighter -- i.e., a knight -- is going to have between 60 and 100 pounds of armor. It may sound excessive, but it's practical. (A light suit for many knights was 50 pounds; Dan Howard can correct me if I've gotten bad facts.)
40-50 was more typical for a full harness of plate unless it was proofed against firearms.

As has been said, the damage of hand weapons in GURPS is too high. Scale it back so it is consistent with armour and firearms. Or scale firearms and armour DR up
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=119089
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post
These discussions tend to come back to bullets. Couldn't the problem be firearm damage? That optional rule (in Pyramid I think) that suggested dividing bullet damage by 2 and adding AD (2) seemed to me to remove that entire argument quite tidily. But as I said in my OP, for LT armor I'm not presently concerned with firearms.
That reduces wounding while not changing penetration. Since we're talking about penetration, not bullet lethality, that has no bearing on the matter at hand.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

I'll note that a lot of GURPS gets pretty cinematic pretty quick if you use basic attributes above 15. I think you might get better results by rejiggering how you calculate lifting weight so that normal human maximums for ST tends to cap out at 15-16, and simply accepting that the ST 20 fantasy barbarian will punch through armor because he's about as realistic as the double-headed 20 lb battleaxe he's swinging around.
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