Fatigue for Warriors

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Plane

But I don't see anything preventing a pistol that has a shoulder stock from still adding the extra hand to get another +1 acc, so maybe we should just give 2H guns that +1 too?

It's implied, though. HT says "Carbine of sorts", and has you use Guns (Rifle) to fire a stocked pistol. All this strongly implies that you're using both hands as the normal usage and do not get to call that 'braced' as if it were still a pistol.

Note that using a stock and firing your pistol using both hands have the same in-game mechanical effects (aside from the stock costing money and adding weight), except that the stocked pistol uses a different skill. This would bother me, except in real life stocked pistols have never been terribly popular, suggesting that the benefits are slight.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I. This would bother me, except in real life stocked pistols have never been terribly popular, suggesting that the benefits are slight.

I will attempt to forestall somebody else from complaining about you ignoring millions of C96s (including copies). You might be able to say that stocked pistols don't compete very well with rifles.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I will attempt to forestall somebody else from complaining about you ignoring millions of C96s (including copies). You might be able to say that stocked pistols don't compete very well with rifles.

And how many were used with their stocks? How many other pistols were outfitted with stocks? Some models, sure, but not many.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Note that using a stock and firing your pistol using both hands have the same in-game mechanical effects (aside from the stock costing money and adding weight), except that the stocked pistol uses a different skill.

You could do either or both a shoulder-brace vs a 2nd hand though...

Do you think the rules for 1H firing of rifles still assume you're using the shoulder brace?

In which case if someone is wielding it T-800 style they'd not only need 2x the strength to fire it without it getting unreadied, but still get the -1 to acc for not actually USING the shoulder stock (but it would still have full bulk since the stock is not removed/collapsed)

It actually seems kinda strange how B270 works for “†” where if you have less than 1.5x the ST you can't attack with a 2H weapon at all?

For 1H weapons ST is never actually a hard cap on usage, instead it's softcapped by -1 to skill per ST you're lacking. So what if we just applied the skill penalties that would result?

IE with quarterstaff (B273) the ST 7 x 1.5 = 10.5 (rounds up to 11) to use it one handed. But if someone with only ST 10 wanted to wield it, you could just make them -1 to skill. Same idea w/ rifles.

The only thing kinda hard-capped I wouldn't know how to tweak about this is automatic unreadying after each attack. To change that into a softcapped system I was thinking maybe something like ALL weapons become unready after attacking but you can do an automatic roll to re-ready them as a free action with progressive levels of difficulty based on what your ST is in relation to the weapon.

Basically great place to apply the 'Retain Weapon' technique. If not 'automatic unreadying' then progressive loss of control over a weapon by spending control points you have on a weapon for each thing you do with it (attack or parry) but you can combine those stuff with a RW roll to restore the Grip Control Points that you spend.

Could possible also work in the Recoil rules for ranged weapons too.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Rupert

And how many were used with their stocks? How many other pistols were outfitted with stocks? Some models, sure, but not many.

Stocked pistols were used a lot in Warlord-era China, partly because there was an arms embargo in 1919-29 that prevented the import of rifles but allowed pistols. That got the idea established. See "The Boxed Cannon" on p. 14 of High-Tech: Pulp Guns 1.

[Willy]

Originally Posted by Rupert

And how many were used with their stocks? How many other pistols were outfitted with stocks? Some models, sure, but not many.

Depends actually you can buy kits that convert most pistols into a stocked version, mostly to go around weapon laws or problem with barrel length at close quarters. Pre WWII a lot of pistols had a bigger clip than most rifles and with a shorter barrel were sometimes the weapon of choice for trench warfare, if you couldn´t get a SMG. Some german WWI modells had the option to add a stock, not to mention the various kitchen sink build made up in field workshops in the WWI.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Rupert

And how many were used with their stocks? How many other pistols were outfitted with stocks? Some models, sure, but not many.

the majority of Mausers which were exported to China (or made there) and used as combat carbines to get around export restrictions on rifles and SMGs

Edit: here is a thread with a link to data on one of the Chinese models of stocked pistols (an enlarged Browning Mle 1900)

[Polydamas]

It would be absurd for long guns to get the Bracing bonus just because they are supported with both hands, and p. B346 explicitly forbids it ("If you brace a firearm or crossbow, you get an extra +1 to Acc. A firearm or crossbow is braced if you can rest it on a sandbag, low wall, car, etc. A one-handed firearm (e.g., a pistol) is considered braced if used two-handed. A two-handed firearm (e.g., a rifle) is considered braced if you are prone and using a bipod.") but I might allow a stocked pistol to claim the bonus if it is braced on a solid object. I have never shot one, and the ergonomics are supposed to be not great, but it would make a stocked pistol more accurate than a stockless pistol gripped with both hands, braced over the opposite elbow, etc.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Plane

GURPSwise does anyone know the major differences between pistols/rifles? Like is it just the Acc statistic?

I was under the impression that the difference between pistol/rifle for long-range sniping is HUGE. Maybe it's not a big gap in Basic Set but only rifles can use the advanced big-delay snipe rules in High-Tech/Tactical Shooting?

+1 Acc is +50% effective range. Modern long guns usually have Acc 4-5, versus Acc 1-2 for handguns. Modern long guns generally have a much longer Half Damage Range. The shoulder stock lets you control much more powerful rounds with higher Damage.

For black-powder muzzle-loaders, the same advantages apply, but Acc 2-3 for the long guns and Acc 1 for the handguns (and a smaller difference in 1/2 D range and damage).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Note that using a stock and firing your pistol using both hands have the same in-game mechanical effects (aside from the stock costing money and adding weight), except that the stocked pistol uses a different skill.

One mechanical benefit of the stock is that it adds to Acc, and thus increases the bonus you can get from a scope and/or Precision Aiming (technically, it would also increase the skill cap and potentially increase the bonus you can get from Match ammo, although that's not realistic). You can also still Brace the weapon another way (on a piece of cover, using a rifle sling, etc) to get that +1. That is, an Acc 2 pistol can have a x4 scope and be Braced, for a Terminal Aim (not counting Precision Aiming) bonus of +7 (+2 for Acc, +2 for scope, +1 for Braced, +2 for 2 additional seconds of Aiming). Install a stock and it can use a x8 scope and still be Braced (albeit in a different way), for a Terminal Aim bonus of +9 (+3 for Acc, +3 for scope, +1 for Braced, +2 for 2 additional seconds of Aiming), doubling its effective engagement range. If you do take Precision Aiming into account, the additional +1 from that means a total of +3 relative difference, tripling the weapon's effective engagement range.

Of course, maybe we should take this discussion to a different thread? It's a tangent of a tangent, and pretty much wholly removed from the actual thread topic.