[DF] Vampire Bite Attack

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by b-dog

So when a cleric uses exorcism to remove the vampire's mind control the PC will revert back to his sickly state but while under control of the vampire the PC is as healthy as normal...and maybe he could also be unnaturally healthy and strong while serving his master?

Reverting back to the sickly state is good generally. Depending on the plot and whether it would fit, you might also instead reward especially heroic and well roleplayed characters with the option to pay points to retain some of the positive aspects of having once been under the vampiric control, to represent the occasional idea of "remnant powers" that were unlocked on else left behind due to fundamental changes... especially if they actually became vampires and then got turned back somehow.

Originally Posted by b-dog

I would also like to extend this to other undead and demons as well. Succubi might cause permanent HT loss as well and the tail strike of Demogorgon would likely permanently strike the life out of PCs as well.

Not sure how DF does ghosts off the top of my head, but as you probably know AD&D did them with an aging attack, which always scared me most of all. It probably wouldn't have scared many players, and purely game mechanically shouldn't have bothered me (my characters usually started off in late teens to early 20s, so when was he going to suffer age effects?), but I always felt very attached to my characters and also hate the idea of aging. If I wanted to build an aging attack for a ghost I also wouldn't do it with Leech and its Steal Youth... requires too many levels to do anything significant since it drains in months and not years. I might instead cobble together something with an Unaging with Age Control Affliction and Permanent, give them Terror with a limitation such that it always is restricted to aging, or just give them the Age spell as an inherent ability and call it done.

[Dustin]

It's also worth keeping in mind that the 'permanent drain' effect of AD&D undead was something that got replaced in later editions by effects that are more easily reversible, probably because it's actually not much fun to play a PC who has been permanently held back from the valiant feats of the rest of the party by his/her run-in with the undead*.

You might want to consider a HT drain that comes back slowly over time, without cp expenditure, as a middle ground.

Now for true horror games, drain away, nothing wrong with that. The feeling of helplessness is part of the fun. But I would check in with my players before unleashing permanent cp loss as a play feature in a game (DF) where gaining power and character building is a key draw of the genre.

* It's also notable that the logarithmic progression of AD&D leveling would actually help mitigate this over time. The 5K xp you lost at mid-level eventually gets dwarfed by the 100K+ you need to gain a level at higher levels, should you survive that long.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Well, I wasn't picturing "Permanent" in the sense of "gone for good - spend CP" but more along the lines of "Lasting - recover using powerful magic or months of administered treatment". But then, I don't like inflicting conditions on PCs which reduce their point totals, so I'm probably too lenient to judge this one.

Well I play DF and the PCs are pretty much killing machines so they could use a little point reduction now and then. They recover pretty quickly though and I do like the idea that GURPS can do something similar to level drain.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Sure. Though I could easily see a Succubus sapping Will instead (leaving a mindless - but virile - husk) or afflicting disadvantages like Lecherousness.

OK, I like that a lot better than the HT drain. The PC would mindlessly obey their "mistress" yet be quite formidable in combat to defend her. Thanks, I like that.

[Bruno]

A "level drain", which makes PCs worse at everything, is roughly equal to a -1 to DX and IQ in GURPS - in that a -1 to DX and IQ makes just about every PC worse at all success rolls. But it's also pretty brutal, and is more a game mechanic translation than connected to any "vampire thing".

I like the HT and Will "damage" but I'd want an enhancement for Leech that makes them recovered like HP, not like FP (roll once daily to recover 1, not automagically recover one every 10 minutes).

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I like the HT and Will "damage" but I'd want an enhancement for Leech that makes them recovered like HP, not like FP (roll once daily to recover 1, not automagically recover one every 10 minutes).

Going from recovering 1/10min to 1/day is an increase in duration of x144. Assuming that average victims have a base 10 HT (and that the reduced HT doesn't impact this roll) and thus a 50% chance of regaining 1 point each day, this doubles the duration to x288. You couldn't go too wrong by treating this as Increased Duration x300, a +100% enhancement.

[Kromm]

A lasting drain that can only be reversed by character points or a few tens of thousands of $ at a major temple is fine. There are two clear cures – points and money – that flow relatively freely in a DF campaign, so the players shouldn't feel too ******. However, I would place a few caveats on this:

• The draining attack shouldn't happen in combat. A humanoid with arms and hands might fight with weapons, or perhaps cast spells, but why would he bite? That means grappling one victim while that person's allies stab his back, and is actually silly for anything with a humanoid build. Draining attacks ought to be a consequence of being incapacitated in battle and fed on later, or occur in apparently social situations (although these may turn into battles forthwith). Vampires charging fangs-first isn't fantasy-horror – it's dumb, bad tactics.
  
  
• Points and money must flow freely in the campaign. In a DF game where the adventurers gain points significantly less quickly than on p. 42 of DF 3, or where they rarely bring home loot equal to or greater than their starting money, avoid this kind of drain. That's in part because zero-growth characters are no fun to play and in part because a lasting penalty for some delvers but not others tends to be divisive. This is doubly true when the results are a consequence of unlucky dice (not dodging, resisting, etc.) rather than bad decisions (going off in private with that dark, handsome dude or the scantily-clad babe with a barbed tail) or poor roleplaying.
  
  
• Whatever is drained ought to make sense given the entity doing the draining. For instance HT for a vampire or Will for a seductress demon both seem cool enough. Having the vampire drain ST or the demoness reduce IQ would be fine, too. However, randomly assessing DX drains, advantage losses, etc. "just because" feels arbitrary enough that even if the delver was afflicted fair and square (bad decisions or roleplaying), and even if there's a cure (points or $), the players will call foul on something that looks more like the GM's instrument of reducing abilities he thinks are too high than like a creature with precedent in myth or genre fiction.

And no, this kind of drain isn't comparable to a crippled limb which could occur in any given combat due to sheer bad luck. There are several spells that PC clerics can learn (Restoration, Instant Restoration, Regeneration, and Instant Regeneration) to cure crippled limbs, and the cleric's Healing ability can restore crippled-but-intact limbs. Crippling is a minor threat next to lost HT or Will or whatever that can't be replaced down in the dungeon.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Kromm

And no, this kind of drain isn't comparable to a crippled limb which could occur in any given combat due to sheer bad luck. There are several spells that PC clerics can learn (Restoration, Instant Restoration, Regeneration, and Instant Regeneration) to cure crippled limbs, and the cleric's Healing ability can restore crippled-but-intact limbs. Crippling is a minor threat next to lost HT or Will or whatever that can't be replaced down in the dungeon.

Presumably, if "Life Draining" or "Negative Energy" attacks (to borrow terms from D&D) are common, then Healers will have developed countermeasures against them - either through new spells (or variants of old ones) or Esoteric Medicine and other cinematic healing skills. Then again, as I expressed above, I'd be more inclined to treat this attribute drain as a lasting crippling injury, rather than a permanent loss of capability.

And just to be clear, you see no problem with applying Increased Duration to Leech attacks? What about Permanent (at the +150% or +300% levels)? And what about Permanent on Innate Attacks to represent wounds that elude normal healing? Or should the attacker afflict the Wounded disadvantage, instead?

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

And just to be clear, you see no problem with applying Increased Duration to Leech attacks? What about Permanent (at the +150% or +300% levels)? And what about Permanent on Innate Attacks to represent wounds that elude normal healing? Or should the attacker afflict the Wounded disadvantage, instead?

It always looks like there's an implicit built-in +150% and +300% Permanent on the two "levels" of Steal Youth respectively. But that affects the permanence both ways, making the rejuvenation also permanent.

So in a way adding Permanent or any Extended Duration to Leech feels like it'd be a ***. I'd say apply the enhancement to the Steal Score enhancement rather than the whole Leech... and then it still feels a little like a *** but not so much.

In my mind, best to forget Leech for all but attacks that closely match it without tweaking and just build want you want to build via a linked attack (either an Affliction or an Innate Attack generally) with either self Healing or Regen. Leech doesn't do anything well that doesn't come pre-built into it out of the box... IMHO, of course.

And if you want your Leech-like self-built abilty to work like regular Leech, requiring a touch or something that'd allow an active defense, then I think it's more than reasonable to handwave the whole "you can't bypass the defender's resistance roll for the Affliction" thing... since that's exactly what Leech does, since Steal Score (HT, ST, etc) doesn't allow a resistance roll and is effectively the same as an Attribute Penalty Affliction measured in minutes.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

And what about Permanent on Innate Attacks to represent wounds that elude normal healing? Or should the attacker afflict the Wounded disadvantage, instead?

The RAW way to handle lasting damage from IA or such is the Cosmic Unhealing enhancement.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Refplace

The RAW way to handle lasting damage from IA or such is the Cosmic Unhealing enhancement.

Hmm, I'm not familiar with that one. I don't see it in Powers. Is it from Power-Ups 4? (don't have that book yet)