Historical questions regarding 15th century Feudal Japan

[phayman53]

Two questions regarding 15th Century Feudal Japan:

First, was it tech level 3 or 4? They were not using plate armor or firearms yet, but were able to adopt them quickly in the next century after coming in contact with the Portuguese. Not sure about their other technologies.

Second, would a Samurai's ability to kill commoners for an insult or (supposedly) to test the sharpness of their swords count as a 5 or 10 point legal immunity. The reason I ask is that, aside from this big issue, Samurai seem to have been beholden to basically the same laws as everyone else, though with different punishments--often only in form, not degree (ritual suicide instead of execution for capital crimes).

Thanks!

[whswhs]

It seems to me that the samurai's power to execute people on the spot is not so much Legal Immunity at any level as Law Enforcement Powers 10 or 15.

Bill Stoddard

[phayman53]

While is see your point, from my limited reading it does not seem that the samurai were taking the role of magistrates, at least not in this capacity. They are simply able to kill commoners with relative impunity as personal revenge for an insult to themselves or because they want to test how sharp their sword is (though I have read that doing the latter too often would result in serious social consequences). Again, from my limited knowledge it does not seem that they carried out a judicial or law enforcement role, that is why I was thinking legal immunity rather than legal enforcement. Am I understanding this properly? Also, not sure who was in charge of legal proceedings in Japan, was it at the whim of the local lord, or were their juries like in the manorial courts in Medieval Europe?

[Ashtagon]

I'd call it a 10-point Legal Immunity (less strict). However, they'd also have 10-point Legal Enforcement Powers (arrest suspects, doesn't need to respect civil rights).

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

I'd call it a 10-point Legal Immunity (less strict). However, they'd also have 10-point Legal Enforcement Powers (arrest suspects, doesn't need to respect civil rights).

It would have to be very limited, since it only applies to people of a lower status group. It's not like Taro can go arrest Nobu if both are samurai.

Personally I'd just chalk it up to Status or Status plus a possibly small legal immunity. It's really just a case of unequal treatment under the law, which isn't a personal advantage so much as the result of having Status. If all people of Status X or higher are treated like Y under the law, I don't think it makes sense to break out an extra cost for Y.

I can't tell you how the legal system worked at that time, though. I only know about Tokugawa-era law and that from unreliable fiction.

[Ashtagon]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

It would have to be very limited, since it only applies to people of a lower status group. It's not like Taro can go arrest Nobu if both are samurai.

Personally I'd just chalk it up to Status or Status plus a possibly small legal immunity. It's really just a case of unequal treatment under the law, which isn't a personal advantage so much as the result of having Status. If all people of Status X or higher are treated like Y under the law, I don't think it makes sense to break out an extra cost for Y.

I can't tell you how the legal system worked at that time, though. I only know about Tokugawa-era law and that from unreliable fiction.

If all people of Status X or higher are treated like Y under the law, then all people of Status X must simultaneously purchase Legal Immunity and/or Law Enforcement Powers, as appropriate to the setting.

You don't get something for nothing. Not in this game.

[phayman53]

Hmm, well I can see that there is far from any consensus yet about how status, legal enforcement powers, and legal immunity work together... I tend to think that it is the sort of thing that should be paid for in addition to status, I'm just not sure how much since it covers nothing but the killing of status 0 and lower people by status 2+ people, and some of the time there can be consequences. Other crimes are still punished, though sometimes in different, though not always less harsh, ways. I guess I am leaning towards 10 point legal immunity for less restrictive laws, but since it is only one (albeit big) law, this seems a bit much. Thanks all for your feedback.

Anyone have any thoughts on the overall TL of 15th C Japan? It seems less cut and dry to me than 15th C Europe.

[Varyon]

One thing about settings (historical or otherwise) where high Status characters have effective Legal Immunity is that this immunity is often informal - that is, "crossroads cuttings" weren't necessarily legal, they just weren't prosecuted. It might (I'm no expert on the period) have been legally possible for a police officer of the time to go after the perpetrator.

In settings where this is the case, it may be appropriate to use a Reaction Roll to determine if the police opt to pursue the crime. Perhaps Nobu is able to get away with testing his sword on random passersby due to the fact that he has high Status, Social Regard (Samurai), and a positive Reputation amongst police. Modern celebrities can (or are at least thought to be able to) often get away with minor crimes due to similar effects.

[DangerousThing]

As I understand it, the whole testing their sword for sharpness was done on the bodies of dead convicts, not passerbies.

Also, in that period, I think that Japanese law really didn't have much use for prisoners. The prison was only to hold somebody until guilt was determined by confession. To get the confession, the police had a lot of latitude. This was from GURPS Japan, and I might have the wrong set of years.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

You don't get something for nothing. Not in this game.

It's not for nothing, it's just not necessarily extra cost. If this advantage is going to be substantial and valuable in this campaign, it's worth charging for. If it's not, it's not worth charging for. That's basically what I am saying here. The idea is that Status sometimes includes more than just a reaction bonus and higher cost of living isn't crazy in GURPS. For example, Security Clearance says right out it applies only to stuff you don't just get automatically from Status or Rank. And as Status says right out: "High Status carries various privileges, different in every game world; your GM will give you this information. "

So the GM can decide this isn't anything extra - all samurai have this right by virtue of their Status and that's that, no extra cost, if only because no one with that Status can possibly lack it.

YMMV.