Alchemy

[TippetsTX]

ALCHEMY is a great area and opportunity for some creative rules expansion IMO.

[hcobb]

I have yet to attend a campaign that didn't have variant potions. (Usually some sort of super healing potion.)

What is the modifier on the IQ roll for an Alchemist (or Chemist) to identify non-standard potions? How good do they have to roll to be able to list out all of the side effects? (May cause fatal beard loss in dwarves.)

A lot of settings (non-Cidrian) have alchemist enchanters who can't "cast" spells but can adapt monster parts into general magical items.

[JohnPaulB]

Sara, good consolidating and questions.
PvK and others, good answers that mostly align with my thoughts. I came to my conclusions, before I read everyone's answers.

Originally Posted by Shaira

The IQ14 Alchemy talent says the Alchemist is "familiar with all the formulas on the Alchemist Table and, with access to the proper books, materials, and facilities, can make them." I'm assuming that this means a beginning character doesn't have automatic access to these proper books, etc, so, without a bit more effort and expenditure, just having the Alchemy talent alone doesn't mean you can make a potion straight off the bat. You need access to a book, materials, and facilities.

Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid

Correct. An alchemist needs a magical laboratory, and the formula for the potion they want to make, as well as the ingredients.

My view expands on this: An alchemist laboratory is to the specs of a Wizard's lab because he is making magical items. I believe that because an alchemist does not have to be a wizard, they don't need to 'attune' the lab to themselves.

Originally Posted by Shaira

ITL also says that Chemists aren't wizards, but Alchemists are. I'm assuming this means that Alchemists, being wizards, are assumed to know at least one spell, and are therefore familiar with the process of spell-casting, which is therefore an ability necessary when creating alchemical potions.

Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid

No. It just means alchemy uses magic, while chemistry does not (it uses chemistry). Alchemy does not require being a wizard, and it does not require knowing a spell. It does require the Alchemy talent, which is a magical-type talent that only costs wizards the same amount to learn (rather than double), but a non-wizard can also learn it, without knowing any spells.

PvK, I agree with you. An alchemist is called a magician because he makes magical potions. He doesn't spend any fatigue doing it. An alchemist doesn't worry about gestures or incantations. It doesn't say he's a wizard class. Wizard or Hero pays the same point cost.

Originally Posted by Shaira

Now here's where I start to need to interpret the rules. ITL p145 says the "worth" of an alchemical (or chemical) book is "about $20 per page". I'm assuming that "worth" means that's how much it costs to buy an alchemical book for a potion. So, if our beginning Alchemist character wants to be able to make a Healing potion, he'll need to spend $100 to buy a 5-page "book" detailing how to make one, and then get access to materials and facilities. It doesn't matter how complex the underlying spell is; the cost of the book is purely based on how many pages it has to make the potion. Presumably you can buy this book from the Wizards' Guild.

Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid

Yes, though one might consider that the complexity of a potion formula is the number of weeks and pages required. See your GM for whether you actually manage to find each formula for sale.

You could be your own scribe and copy it for the price of a blank book and ink, the original borrowed from a friend or library. Or learn and use the 14IQ Duplicate Writing spell.

Originally Posted by Shaira

ITL p145 also says it's possible to "rent" an Alchemical Laboratory from the Wizards' Guild for $150 per week, plus $50 for materials. I'm not sure whether that means $50/week for materials.

Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid

Yes, using any type of lab costs about $50 per week in upkeep costs (materials, repairs, etc, in addition to what a potion itself calls for), as mentioned also on ITL p. 142. A typical guild would typically charge that much as a regular fee.

You might think of the $50 in materials as an accountant version Lab Rental insurance.

Originally Posted by Shaira

Also, I don't *think* that $150 / week automatically gets you access to the book you need for a given potion, but it's not clear; the following paragraph suggests an alchemical lab requires a "specialized library", which you might have access to for $150/week at the Wizards' Guild, but again it's not clear whether that includes books for each of the potions on the "Alchemist Table".

Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid

A lab does probably both includes some general books, as well as requiring formulas for specific potions.

A lab doesn't generally include a formulas for free.

But some specific ones might provide some for free, or for a fee. All of the fees and prices listed in ITL are of course guidelines. A specific place might charge whatever it wants, or provide (or rent or sell, or not) books, or not. Ask your GM for what specifically exists and is available where you are.

A 'specialized library' contains symbol decoding lists, alternate procedures in cold weather, data on what 'ingredients gone bad' looks like, etc.

Also you can consider it like a computer lab. Some hacker has probably bummed a sub-routine down to its fewest lines and put the tape in the drawer for others to admire and use.

Originally Posted by Shaira

The "costs" indicated for each Chemical and Alchemical Potion refer to the average retail price for a given potion, assuming all things are equal.

Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid

Yes, though they're probably on the low end in most places that haven't devised safer ways to make potions than are described.

The cost of the wizard doing his own manufacture is not the listed cost to buy a made potion. For example: Making a Berserker Potion requires 6 dried berserker mushrooms ($60) plus $49 in common ingredients or $109 total. And the 2 weeks in the lab.

If you are going to spend the 2 weeks, you might as well buy more ingredients and go up in scale. Make a batch of 10 doses.
- - - - - - - -

Don't forget about Talk Like an Alchemist by Steve Jackson in Hexagram 7 page 26.

[Shaira]

Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for your feedback and input - glad to know I was pretty much in the ballpark with my summary of the RAW, so I now have a baseline to work from. I'm probably going to take a long hard look at enchanting next and see if there any interesting and cool overlaps there. I don't have Hexagram 7 yet, but I've ordered it, so will take a look at the Alchemy article as soon as it arrives!

The one very obvious quick-win houserule is to tweak that 3/DX roll so that it's not a binary success/failure-and-start-again, which IMHO is a bit sucky in play. Imagine having to make 20 consecutive DX rolls to make a Revival potion - not only is that going to be quite tedious to play out, it'd be incredibly frustrating if you failed the 20th roll!

I'm going to have a think about how I'd actually like that to work in play at my own table. For starters, I think an "Alchemical Mishaps and How To Survive Them" table could be great fun.

One other thing that strikes me is that there's no nuance for skill or experience in the Alchemy RAW. Once you have IQ14 and DX15, you're going to be as good an alchemist as you'll ever be, no matter how old and experienced you get. The only barrier to what you can make is money and materials - sure, that's peripherally linked to how experienced your character is, but a sudden windfall could advance you rapidly, and is has nothing to do with character advancement via Experience Points.

A few thoughts on refining the Alchemy RAW:

- Introduce IQ as a factor when you're trying to make more complex potions. If you're trying to make that Revival potion, I'd introduce either a bonus or penalty based on how close you are to IQ19, the IQ req for the Revival spell.
- Reduce the number of dice rolls. Sure, that's where the difficulty of a potion is currently centered, but 20 DX rolls feels excessive.
- Maybe use the Contest (Opposed Rolls) rules in some way. For example, instead of requiring 20 DX rolls, instead require 20 "successes"; each point by which you succeed your DX roll is one "success". I realise this is introducing a rules mechanic which currently doesn't exist in TFT - something akin to a "Task Roll" - but it might be cool. It's even possible that could shorten the time required to make a potion, in the same way that failing the DX roll effectively lengthens the time.
- Incorporate your own knowledge of corresponding spells or talents into the process. I grok that making a Revival potion is not the same as casting a Revival spell, but it might be cool to say that if you know the Revival spell, it gives you an advantage in either making the potion or in dealing with / fixing any mishaps. It also reinforces the idea that making an alchemical potion uses "magic" in some way - sure, you don't have to know any spells to be an alchemist, but the RAW are clear that alchemists are "magicians" in a way that chemists aren't, so presumably some kind of magical energy or working is involved. IMHO that's a cool distinction that it would be groovy to reflect in play in an indirect way.

Cheers,

Sarah

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by Shaira

I'm going to have a think about how I'd actually like that to work in play at my own table. For starters, I think an "Alchemical Mishaps and How To Survive Them" table could be great fun.

One other thing that strikes me is that there's no nuance for skill or experience in the Alchemy RAW. Once you have IQ14 and DX15, you're going to be as good an alchemist as you'll ever be, no matter how old and experienced you get. The only barrier to what you can make is money and materials - sure, that's peripherally linked to how experienced your character is, but a sudden windfall could advance you rapidly, and is has nothing to do with character advancement via Experience Points.

How about having part of that advancement handle some of that "Alchemical Mishaps and How To Survive Them." For each advancement type you give the character above your IQ14, DX 15, have them solve one of the 'disasters': Either a reduction in the damage or outright nipping the disaster in the bud. Or perhaps another savings roll on ST or DX to reduce damage.

A few thoughts on refining the Alchemy RAW:

- Introduce IQ as a factor when you're trying to make more complex potions. If you're trying to make that Revival potion, I'd introduce either a bonus or penalty based on how close you are to IQ19, the IQ req for the Revival spell.
- Reduce the number of dice rolls. Sure, that's where the difficulty of a potion is currently centered, but 20 DX rolls feels excessive.

Perhaps the alchemist has gotten data on how to reduce the weeks by transfering some of the magic cost to the user. Say 10 points fatigue to the one who activates it for every week less. Any reduction of fatigue past zero causes a coma that lasts 1 day for each negative number.

- Maybe use the Contest (Opposed Rolls) rules in some way. For example, instead of requiring 20 DX rolls, instead require 20 "successes"; each point by which you succeed your DX roll is one "success". I realise this is introducing a rules mechanic which currently doesn't exist in TFT - something akin to a "Task Roll" - but it might be cool. It's even possible that could shorten the time required to make a potion, in the same way that failing the DX roll effectively lengthens the time.
- Incorporate your own knowledge of corresponding spells or talents into the process. I grok that making a Revival potion is not the same as casting a Revival spell, but it might be cool to say that if you know the Revival spell, it gives you an advantage in either making the potion or in dealing with / fixing any mishaps. It also reinforces the idea that making an alchemical potion uses "magic" in some way - sure, you don't have to know any spells to be an alchemist, but the RAW are clear that alchemists are "magicians" in a way that chemists aren't, so presumably some kind of magical energy or working is involved. IMHO that's a cool distinction that it would be groovy to reflect in play in an indirect way.

Perhaps a week less for every Revival Spell you cast into the potion?


Also, why are you restricting yourself to a 32 point beginning character for your alchemist. Its yours to play: Why not start it at 36 points.

[larsdangly]

I know I wrote against the single-failed-roll rule above, but two things in favor of it are worth noting: 1) it is sort of realistic; anyone who has worked in challenging parts of laboratory science can attest to the fact that each of every one of several steps need to go right to end up with a successful lab experiment; and 2) it counter balances the fact that a hero with one talent and enough extra money and time can reproduce the effects of some extraordinary spells, as well as some things that no regular wizard can do. If they are going to reach for that kind of power, they should feel that it is a high wire act, not just some fete accompli. Anyway, it's not so bad for a talented, prepared character: the worst case situation is the 20 weeks required to create a Revival or Youth potion, which entail 61% chance of failure even if your adjDX is 15 (i.e., only auto-failure rolls matter). That might sound frustrating, but no one is making you plumb the depths of Alchemy's most challenging recipes - that's a lifestyle choice and its on you.