Camouflage: Mobile Skill?

[MrFix]

It just came to me the other day that for a long time I thought of Camouflage as immobile skill, but now I can't seem to find anything in FAQ, Krommposts or the books to suggest so. If one can use Camouflage on one's self while on the move, to beat enemy's vision, that makes the skill that much more useful.

Does anybody have page numbers, links to Kromm posts or any such that would mark Camouflage as static skill only, and thus impossible to use while moving?

[Anaraxes]

You're probably thinking of Chameleon, which says that its bonus does not apply if you're moving (presumably because the color-changing process is too slow to adapt as you move). Also, you might be remembering that if you're moving, you need a Stealth roll (because Stealth covers both vision and hearing), and that Camo gives no bonus to Stealth (which is debatable, but RAW).

The difference is that Stealth's anti-vision is more of a matter of hiding behind stuff, moving when people aren't looking, and so on, while Camo is "hiding" from vision even in direct line of sight (where Stealth doesn't help you). Successful Camo while moving along with a failed Stealth roll means the detector heard you but didn't see you. Failed Camo with failed Stealth means they both hear and see you. Not having (or trying) Camo and rolling only Stealth means they automatically see you on a failure, because you're sticking out from behind that tree or whatever. A successful Camo roll lets you remain invisible even while you walk toward the guard -- but get close enough and they might well hear you if you're just stomping along without Stealth.

Some players apply the Camo bonuses even after detection. (Even though they know where you are, you're still hard to see exactly, the direction of your motions aren't as obvious, and so on. Consider dazzle camouflage on ships, or compare the penalty for "knowing the target location within 1 yard" at -4, which means allowing a -1 for "knowing within an inch or two" might not be unreasonable.) Vision penalties apply to to-hit rolls in combat, for instance, so having a Camo bonus even when you've been spotted could well make the skill worthwhile.

Here's the relevant uFAQ. Also, the entry from johndallman's Skill of the Week series.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You're probably thinking of Chameleon, which says that its bonus does not apply if you're moving

Per RAW (p. B41) bonuses for Chameleon are halved when you're moving, not negated.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by MrFix

If one can use Camouflage on one's self while on the move, to beat enemy's vision, that makes the skill that much more useful.

I don't believe that there's any RAW information on the topic.

Skill rolls to use Camouflage require sufficient time and imply that you've got a stationary subject and favorable conditions.

Camouflaging yourself, or a vehicle, while on the move would assume minimal time spent as you daub yourself with mud or grease paint, throw camo nets over you or your vehicle, and tear up handfuls of grass or tree branches to break up your outline as you go.

If a character had the proper equipment, was moving in favorable terrain, and hadn't been detected yet, I'd allow them to make a Camouflage skill roll while moving, but at a hefty penalty for reduced time and being distracted.

The exception might be a creature with the Chameleon advantage at high levels, or the equivalent, which is attempting to camouflage themselves after "going to ground." (e.g., a flatfish quickly tossing sand over its body)

Camouflaging yourself on the move after you've been detected would be cinematic. The only way I'd allow it is if you could somehow break visual contact first. This could be a simple as "popping smoke" or ducking behind cover which provides 100% concealment.

[fula farbrorn]

I would let someone roll for camouflage and then move using that roll, i would just use the speed range table to give him a minus depending on his speed, after all a moving person is easier to see

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I don't believe that there's any RAW information on the topic.

Skill rolls to use Camouflage require sufficient time and imply that you've got a stationary subject and favorable conditions.

Camouflaging yourself, or a vehicle, while on the move would assume minimal time spent as you daub yourself with mud or grease paint, throw camo nets over you or your vehicle, and tear up handfuls of grass or tree branches to break up your outline as you go.

If a character had the proper equipment, was moving in favorable terrain, and hadn't been detected yet, I'd allow them to make a Camouflage skill roll while moving, but at a hefty penalty for reduced time and being distracted.

The exception might be a creature with the Chameleon advantage at high levels, or the equivalent, which is attempting to camouflage themselves after "going to ground." (e.g., a flatfish quickly tossing sand over its body)

Camouflaging yourself on the move after you've been detected would be cinematic. The only way I'd allow it is if you could somehow break visual contact first. This could be a simple as "popping smoke" or ducking behind cover which provides 100% concealment.

By mobile skill I meant camouflaging yourself against terrain and then moving while camouflaged, your camouflage roll being used in QC against opponent's vision. I didn't mean explicitly rubbing dirt on yourself while walking, but I did mean 'picking routes and paths that would work best with your current camouflage, be it an outfit or makeshift'.

[Anaraxes]

There probably should be a spotting bonus simply for targets that are moving, as that's a thing that tends to reflexively attract the attention of human brains. (One reason that stage magicians use motions to misdirect.)

Regardless, I'd count the Camo bonus to spot a moving target. Most of the techniques are still useful to some degree even on a moving subject. It's not like an army's camo pattern suddenly turns solid hunter safety orange when a soldier takes a couple of steps. They may not be as ideally hidden as the sniper in their ghillie suit that spent an hour blending into their hide, but they're also not as visible as someone dressed normally. (In game terms, the sniper is getting a larger Camo bonus while the infantryman has a small one, rather than the sniper getting the minimal bonus while the infantryman gets nothing because they're moving.) Being in motion could limit the maximum Camo bonus you can achieve thanks to inability to exactly and precisely match the background, but I wouldn't put that maximum at 0.

(And from the gamist point of view, the skill becomes near to useless if it only works on fixed installations and all the time spent is lost if a camo'd object moves. With that kind of ruling, your problems will be solved because aware players will never take the skill in the first place. Likely Camouflage wouldn't even have been invented in that setting because it so rarely had any practical value -- more like a "dirty trick" that worked once or twice in history, so everyone knows the story, but nobody bothers swapping out their soldier's scarlet tunics for natural colors because they're never perfectly still for long periods.)

[MrFix]

Alright, I have a clearer picture of it all now, cheers. But if somebody does find a rule preventing camouflage to be used in QC vs vision to spot a moving target, I'd still love to hear about it.

[Farmer]

I've often taken Stealth to be a passive approach and Camouflage to be an active one, to the same fundamental challenge - not being detected.

Stealth is about avoidance. Not being seen or heard or otherwise noticed in the first place. Camouflage is about actively doing something to misdirect and obscure your presence.

A submarine running silently, using thermal layers, understanding convergence zones, avoid cavitation, and so on. That's stealth. It's like the thief crawling slowly and quietly through the roof space, in the dark, knowing the layout the mansion and not travelling over the occupied bedrooms, or walking through the ball room but watching those who would watch them and knowing just when to step behind a pillar or an obnoxiously loud bore of a man that no one wants to pay any attention. That's stealth.

That same submarine, under an onslaught of active sonar and depth charges, decides to run to the sandy bottom and settle, hull impressed in the silt and the water misty with the fine grains. That's hiding under scrutiny, that's camouflage. The thief who expertly swipes a waiter's tray, with napkin and contents and turns to serve the lady and gentlemen next to him while the guards are scanning for whoever tripped the window alarm or the sniper in a ghillie approaching their firing position under the active gaze of the soldiers in the guard tower and the patrol ahead of them, they pull the fishing line strung behind them 100 yards that rattles some stacked branches, knowing it will startle the birds in the trees that will squawk and screech and fly away to draw the eye of watchers while the make a slither across some particularly bare ground. That's camouflage.

So I think that camouflage while moving makes perfect sense. It doesn't have to be just what you wear or how you paint your face and so on. It can be about all the things you do to misdirect your opponents, exactly as Anaraxes suggests about magicians.

I know that's not RAW. But I think that, particularly in GURPS, rules are not only guidelines, but also seeds. Don't over think them, but don't let them get in the way of creativity or what you think makes sense in your worlds.

Consider my sniper above. What skill would you roll against in terms of RAW for the fishing line trick? Or for a mage in a fantasy game using some form of prestidigitation to distract someone already looking at them so they can make a move? It's not stealth. It's not camouflage. But I think it could be an enabler to a camouflage check. Casting some spell is one thing, making it work as you need in such a scenario requires an understanding of how to misdirect attention sufficiently for you to move without being noticed (at least, until it's too late).

So, yeah, camouflage as a mobile skill for sure, when it makes sense in a given situation (and apply appropriate modifiers, plus and minus).

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by MrFix

By mobile skill I meant camouflaging yourself against terrain and then moving while camouflaged, your camouflage roll being used in QC against opponent's vision. I didn't mean explicitly rubbing dirt on yourself while walking, but I did mean 'picking routes and paths that would work best with your current camouflage, be it an outfit or makeshift'.

That pretty much describes Stealth skill with Camouflage as a Complementary Skill.

More rarely, like the cases that Farmer describes, you might have Camouflage with Stealth as the Complementary Skill.