[MA] Question about Styles and requirements

[trooper6]

I was looking at some of the styles in MA, and I noticed something...that now I have a question about.

Let's say you are going with the MA rules that you can't buy a cinematic skill without it being in your style without unusual training.

So. The fencing styles all include Flying Leap as a skill (except La Verdadera Destreza). Flying Leap has as its prerequisites Jumping and Power Blow. While those styles have Jumping as an optional skill in the style, none of them have Power Blow. And Power Blow is cinematic...which means they can't qualify to use Flying Leap...unless they get Unusual Training (Power Blow), which isn't listed as one of the style perks for that style...and probably shouldn't be unusual for styles that focus on these flying leaps.

So...does the presence of a cinematic skill in a style override other prerequisites? Is that one of the bonuses of having the style in the first place (as opposed to just picking up things piecemeal). Or should fencers all be taking Unusual Training? Or is the lack of Power Blow errata?

This is similar but not completely the same as Hypnotic Hands and dagger fighting style. Hypnotic Hands requires knowing Hypnosis...but Hypnosis (admittedly not cinematic) is not part of the style. Do Dagger Fighters need Hypnonsis to take Hypnotic Hands? Or does the presence of Hypnotic Hands in the style exempt them from that requirement?

Enquiring minds want to know!
Thanks.

[vicky_molokh]

If you can't fulfill the requirements, just buy Unusual Training.

Hypnosis you can buy outside the style.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Molokh

If you can't fulfill the requirements, just buy Unusual Training.

Yes. That way you're spending 1 point (same as if you bought Power Blow, of course) but you don't get a skill that may be inappropriate for your style.

[trooper6]

But Flying Leap is part of the Fencing Styles--it isn't unusual for it. You don't need Unusual Training to by Flying Leap...because it is part of the Style...it isn't even optional...it is central.

Why would all these fencing styles includes a skill as central to it (Flying Leap) that the practitioner can't purchase because of Power Blow not being part of the style? Those mobile fencing styles include Flaying Leap...and then the technique Flying Lunge...none of which they'd be able to use if the Power Blow prerequisite Power Blow is still necessary.

It just seems counterintuitive that ALL cinematic practitioners of three of the four fencing schools would have to have Unusual Training (Power Blow) if they want to be able to use the cinematic skills and techniques central to their style. If everyone has to take it...then it doesn't seem unusual anymore.

So, to clarify, what I'm hearing is that all cinematic fencers must either
a) take Unusual Training (Power Blow) so they can use one of their core skills and technique (Flying Leap/Flying Lunge)
b) take Unusual Training (Flying Leap) so they can take a skill that is already part of their style?

And since Unusual Training is not one of their style perks, they have to do this with a general perk...just to use the skills listed in their style?

That doesn't seem right.

[vicky_molokh]

Well, for an unofficial solution, take Power Blow as a Prerequisite only, like you buy spells that are outside your Magery College for satisfying prerequisites. In short: just spend the point already - any way you like - and don't worry about everything else. This Perk should've been listed as not counting towards the perk limit solely for the purpose of buying this Skill. Not the RAW, but the spirit of the rules.

[trooper6]

At the very least that perk should be counted as a Style perk rather than a general perk.
But if all the fencers are going to have to spend a perk to buy Power Blow, and then have to buy power blow to use their core cinematic skill...they might as well use Power Blow. If Power Blow doesn't fit the style...then that pre-req should be waived for the fencers so they can use Flying Leap, which is in their style, without having to get Power Blow at all.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by trooper6

If Power Blow doesn't fit the style...then that pre-req should be waived for the fencers so they can use Flying Leap, which is in their style, without having to get Power Blow at all.

Which is why it should be replaced for a Perk they can take any time they want. (But please remember that IANSOP.)

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by trooper6

And since Unusual Training is not one of their style perks, they have to do this with a general perk...just to use the skills listed in their style?

That doesn't seem right.

It's clearly a mistake - when they added Flying Leap to fencing cinematic skills, they forgot that Flying Leap has Power Blow as a prerequisite.

[Anaraxes]

I think it's reasonable to allow some skills in styles without necessarily possessing their prereqs.

For comparison, consider the Shortcut to Power Perk in Magical Styles. This perk allows you to skip the normal skill prereqs for some spell that is part of the style. It's essentially Unusual Training for spells. It seems to be a pattern that a Perk lets you ignore a prereq.

Actually, I'd be willing to waive the Perk (not least because I'm not a huge fan of them) and just let one of the benefit of a style be exactly that access to skills that you might not otherwise have. If the designer of the style thinks it's logically necessary to include all the prereqs, then they can be added to the style.

But perhaps the mistake is the other way around, and Power Blow isn't really a universal prereq for Flying Leap after all, but really only in wuxia styles.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by trooper6

At the very least that perk should be counted as a Style perk rather than a general perk.

That's reasonable to me.

Originally Posted by trooper6

But if all the fencers are going to have to spend a perk to buy Power Blow, and then have to buy power blow to use their core cinematic skill...they might as well use Power Blow.

They don't really need to spend a perk to buy it. If you're buying Flying Leap, you already have the prereq for Power Blow - Trained By A Master or Weapon Master. So you can just buy Power Blow. It isn't part of your style, and points put in it don't count for total points in your style for buying Style Perks. But it's still a valid purchase even if you use styles - check out the "go learn the skill and come back" discussion of cinematic skill prereqs in the box on pg. 141. It says mundane skills, but I'd say it applies here, too.

I'm aware that TBAM in MA says that it only counts for skills that are part of your style, but if a cinematic skill in your style has a prereq that isn't, I think it's unreasonable to charge extra for it.

Originally Posted by trooper6

If Power Blow doesn't fit the style...then that pre-req should be waived for the fencers so they can use Flying Leap, which is in their style, without having to get Power Blow at all.

That's what I suggested earlier. If you don't find Power Blow fits your PC, and you're not going to bother using it, I'd allow someone to bypass it with a perk. I'd probably just wave it away completely for no cost in my game, because I don't think it's really appropriate in all the cases that Flying Leap is appropriate to hand out. But by the basic rules you can buy Power Blow anyway. I was trying to offer a 1-point solution to "this doesn't fit my character..." Munchkins will take Power Blow anyway, but I try not to write games for them.

You'll notice a few other styles (like Bajutsu) also have Flying Leap but skip Power Blow. It wasn't an accident, it's just not really a skill that fits the style except as a required purchase to get a skill that does. You've got three options here to go with: Buy Power Blow, spend a point getting around the need to buy Power Blow, or just ignore the prereq as inappropriate for the situation. Clear one of those with the referee and go...