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Old 08-25-2020, 01:46 PM   #11
Otaku
 
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
One major change between systems is probably that you can't do half-point skills anymore.
IIRC, while Third Edition does let you invest half-points into Skills, it also requires you have a at least one full point invested into Spells if you want to cast them, or to count them as a prerequisite.
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Old 08-25-2020, 01:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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IIRC, while Third Edition does let you invest half-points into Skills, it also requires you have a at least one full point invested into Spells if you want to cast them, or to count them as a prerequisite.
I remember that for ritual magic (1/2 point lets you recognize rituals, 1 point lets you perform rituals) so maybe it's a similar thing for spells where 1/2 just helps in recognizing what a spell is, or could potentially be of some use in aiding in Ceremonial Magic?
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Old 08-25-2020, 02:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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I remember that for ritual magic (1/2 point lets you recognize rituals, 1 point lets you perform rituals) so maybe it's a similar thing for spells where 1/2 just helps in recognizing what a spell is, or could potentially be of some use in aiding in Ceremonial Magic?
Possibly... but I was addressing your assertion that this was a major change to the system. It just doesn't seem that major to me. Then again, I don't have GURPS Magic for Fourth Edition, I never ran a character or a campaign that used the Ceremonial Magic rules under 3e. I may just not realize how significant a difference this is!

It may help to understand where I was coming from, even if that was a mistaken notion: if you had thought that it was acceptable to build a (non-ceremonial) magic user under the 3e rules with 1/2 points in a bunch of spells, then yes, Fourth Edition no longer allowing 1/2 point investments in skills would be a huge change. Especially for PC mages that were often very optimized. ;)
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Old 08-25-2020, 02:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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1/4 (one quarter or one fourth) or 25% the cost, that is?
1/4th cost, yeah. 3E base cost is 1 while 4E base cost is 4. I do not own 3E basic set, but if the Fright Check table is anything like 4E, then 3E Terror would be a very strong battlefield control spell.


I also didn't realize that the Basic Set doesn't include some spells from every college. Ya learn something new every day.
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Old 08-25-2020, 07:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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I remember that for ritual magic (1/2 point lets you recognize rituals, 1 point lets you perform rituals) so maybe it's a similar thing for spells where 1/2 just helps in recognizing what a spell is, or could potentially be of some use in aiding in Ceremonial Magic?
Nope, simple and arbitrary rule that you had to have a full point in spellls.
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Old 08-26-2020, 07:06 AM   #16
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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Nope, simple and arbitrary rule that you had to have a full point in spellls.
I guess the only benefit that would give is that you could then spend character points to improve the skill, assuming that 3e had similar "you can only learn this via study time" (I guess that's 100 hours for half a point?) rules for acquiring new skills?
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Old 08-26-2020, 07:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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I guess the only benefit that would give is that you could then spend character points to improve the skill, assuming that 3e had similar "you can only learn this via study time" (I guess that's 100 hours for half a point?) rules for acquiring new skills?
To my knowledge _4e_ doesn't have such rules. 3e never did.

If you have earned CP you generally can spend them how you want. You do need a source for your new knowledge but that could be a teacher or a textbook. You have never spent time _and_ 200 study hours to learn new Skills. Just one or the other.
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Old 08-26-2020, 08:28 AM   #18
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post

To my knowledge _4e_ doesn't have such rules. 3e never did.

If you have earned CP you generally can spend them how you want. You do need a source for your new knowledge but that could be a teacher or a textbook. You have never spent time _and_ 200 study hours to learn new Skills. Just one or the other.
That is correct.



Many commonly assumed "rules" never actually turned up in print – i.e., they were never official. "It was this way in Third Edition but they changed it in Fourth Edition!" discussions are inevitably rotten with such assumptions. Over the years, people have often assumed that common house rules for Third Edition were actual rules . . . and when Fourth Edition came out, they read rules taken verbatim from Third Edition, words literally copied and pasted from it, and claimed that we changed things. It's kind of wild to see.

At any rate, no edition of GURPS has ever attached any special importance to a specific point expenditure – ½ point, 1 point, 2 points, whatever – when it comes to "knowing the skill" or study. In all editions, to formally know a skill, you just have to spend more than 0 points on it. In all editions, once you have spent any points on a skill, you can spend more to improve it. And in all editions, the conditions required to spend those points (just having enough points, explicitly using the skill, spending time in an environment when you implicitly used the skill, etc.) are left entirely to the GM . . . but while no edition forbids requiring both points and study, no edition requires or even strongly recommends that, either.

And yes, the rule that even if the minimum expenditure for most skills is ½ point, it's 1 point for spells, is completely arbitrary. It has nothing to do with the deep mechanics of the magic system. It's a straight-up admission that each spell gives a wizard a nifty new trick, so from a spotlight-stealing and niche-invading perspective, the number of spells known is more important that what spells, or their level. Quite simply, if you have N points to spend on spells, this rule means you get at most N and not 2N stunts that could potentially render other PCs irrelevant.
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Old 08-26-2020, 10:49 AM   #19
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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To my knowledge _4e_ doesn't have such rules. 3e never did.

If you have earned CP you generally can spend them how you want. You do need a source for your new knowledge but that could be a teacher or a textbook. You have never spent time _and_ 200 study hours to learn new Skills. Just one or the other.

B170 (left) "In order to learn or improve a skill, you must spend character points."
Technically there are two kinds of character points you can earn, and the freedom you get in spending them depends on how you earn them:
B170 (mid+right) "There are two direct ways to increase your skills in play: spend the bonus points you earn for successful adventuring on new or better skills, or dedicate game time to study, which gives you points you can use to add or improve the skills you studied
So you never really "spend the time" but rather the time converts into CP which you then spend. We know the 1st (adventure rewards) are called "bonus points" so I'd probably call the other less-flexible type "study points". Or maybe BCP/SCP

I agree then it isn't one or the other. HOWEVER... the note at the end says to consult chapter 9...

B292's end note for Improvement Through Adventure:
You may only add a skill if you attempted a default roll (see Quick Learning Under Pressure, box) or if you spent most of the adventure around people who were constantly using the skill.
That's one big benefit to the "Improvised Magic" perk from Magical Styles (or if the GM just makes that a built-in feature for everyone via Thaumatology) is that you could use QLUP rules to put points into any spell, even if you weren't around people using it.

The "constantly using the skill" requirement I think means even if you had a teacher who knew the spell, unless they were constantly using it, you couldn't spend adventure-earned character points to ADD a skill.

Once you've actually added it, improving it is easy: you can improve it if it "saw significant use" which effectively means YOU are the one who was "constantly using" it.

Of course it's a little unclear how often "significant" and "constant" is meant to mean. To me "constant" sounds slightly more than "significant", meaning "how many times I need to watch another mage cast fireball to learn fireball" might be slightly more than "how many times I need to cast fireball to improve fireball".

I definitely think "a textbook" doesn't qualify though, since the book isn't casting the spell.

Textbooks would be a means of using B292's Improvement Through Study to gain the 200 "hours of learning" required for a character point though.

B293's "Learning on the Job" probably does not apply since that is just for "skills used" and you're trying to learn a skill you're NOT using. That's fine though, it has a HORRIBLE ratio (4 hours "study" = "1 hour of learning".

B293's Self-Teaching would cover reading a book without an instructor, it's 2:1 ratio means you'd need 400 hours study to get 200 hours of learning to get that first point.

B293's Education gives the 1:1 ratio where only 200 hours would be needed to get the spell, without actually requiring the teacher to cast the spell like B292 would require if using "bonus points" (BCP) instead of "study points" (SCP)

All that is required (rather than casting it) is they have Teaching 12 (or higher) and know the skill (either with same/more points than you, or same/more level as you) to get the 1:1 ratio.

Intensive Training has a 1:2 ratio (ie spend only 100 hours to get the skill) but requires a more skilled teacher: needs BOTH higher level AND more points in it. Of course: this ALWAYS applies for the first point.

I'm not sure if IT is actually a better rate though because it mentions taking up to 16 hours per day and needing HT 12. That sounds very much like B346's Long Tasks if you think about it.

Using the Long Tasks rule for students would be a lot more interesting than just "hundreds of hours go by, you learn the skill" and it would allow for a more flexible system between Education and Intensive Training. It's also more interesting than "you have HT 12, you succeed at learning twice as fast" to make a HT roll at -1 per hour over 10, -6 in the case of a 16 hour day.

One other drawback of Intensive Training is costs and tuition fees are quadrupled. To me this just means "overtime rates" for having your teacher work 16 hour days.

I would actually see this as a "two roll system". First you have the teacher roll against a skill (either the spell or the teaching skill... maybe with a roll against the other via the Social Skills supplement to potentially get a +1 or +2 bonus to the other) to determine the "effective hours of labour" the student gets, and then the student makes a roll to get the final "man-hours of work".

This could actually lead to very quick learning (example: teacher gets critical success, 8 hours teaching counts as 12 hours teaching, then student gets critical success too: 12 hours teaching becomes 18 hours of learning) or very slow (teacher fails, 8 hours counts as 4: student also fails, 4 hours counts as 2) which is GREAT: leads to a lot more flexibility in the learning process, like one might expect, especially in something like magic.

During these teaching periods I would also give some kind of bonus from either party actually successfully casting the spell, rather than teaching it on theory alone. Not necessarily +1 for each time (that could make it too easy, especially for teachers who can cast it for 0 energy) but maybe something like using the "Time Spent" ratios on B346: +1 for 1 total casting up to +5 for 30 total castings.
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Old 08-26-2020, 11:03 AM   #20
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Default Re: Differences between 3E and 4E Magic spells

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At any rate, no edition of GURPS has ever attached any special importance to a specific point expenditure – ½ point, 1 point, 2 points, whatever – when it comes to "knowing the skill" or study.

In all editions, to formally know a skill, you just have to spend more than 0 points on it.
True, though how many points you have in it (or it's final effective level based on your attribute) can determine what the skill can DO.

e.g. 1/2 point in Ritual Magic was only to recognize rituals, 1 point needed to perform magic with it (in 3e)

Also in 4E the requirements for Education / Intensive Study can depend not just on a teacher's final skill (depends on base attribute) but also how many points they have in the skill (ignores base attribute)

B424 also requires Physician 12 to impart the +1 bonus for Medical Care.

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in all editions, the conditions required to spend those points (just having enough points, explicitly using the skill, spending time in an environment when you implicitly used the skill, etc.) are left entirely to the GM
Regarding the 3 conditions you mentioned, 2 and 3 both require using the skill, so it couldn't help with a skill you hadn't learned yet (and can't use at default) leaving just the first condition (having enough points) which B170 refers to B292 ... the "you may only" seems to require some rigidness for GMs to require "around people constantly using the skill" if using bonus CP instead of studied CP.

Learning magic without a teacher (or at least a spellbook for Self Study... which is in a way still a teacher long-dead who knew the spell originally) could originally in Basic Set be explained with Wild Talent or Modular Abilities (Cosmic Power)

Magical Styles gave a new route: if we interpret Wizardly Dabbler (from Dabbler) to mean 1st-tier spells actually DO have unwritten defaults, this gives us a new "in" for mages (or anybody in High Mana) to learn those starter spells. Since this is "at default" it would also allow B292 QLUP rules (IQ roll to see if you can learn it by next session) to spend bonus points on it. Presumably using them at default, you can progress through the 3 dabbler tiers (+1→+2→+3 for ⅛→¼→½ CP) until finally having 1 full point in the spell.

Since it takes an IQ roll (Eidetic and Photographic Memory give a bonus) to spend 1 full bonus CP to buy a skill used at default (Quick Learning Under Pressure) if you wanted to spend that bonus CP to buy a full point's worth of Wizardly Dabbler, then I'd guess you would need to have used all the spells you're dabbling in at least once...

If a house rule allowed dealing with partial points (ie 0.5 bonus CP to buy half of wizardly dabbler: only 4 spells at +1 to default) then perhaps that could be a bonus to the IQ roll? Like +1 if learning 4 at +1, +2 if learning 2 at +1, +3 if learning 1 at +1?

Once (beyond Dabblerdome) a full point is present in the skill, you're no longer using default (or boosted default) and finally know the spell (ie it counts as a prereq to learning other spells, or knowing it if someone wants to get a +2 to Lend Spell to you) and (with the proper perk, perhaps) can allow other spells to default from it.

If they have the Improvised Magic perk, to use higher-level spells (which do NOT normally have defaults w/o IM perk, you can't get them with wizardly dabbler) at default and thus self-teach them without needing books or education, using the above QLUP approach (although this is harder since double energy and double casting time).

One strange thing is that Wizardly Dabbler spell defaults don't seem to cost x2 time x2 energy like Improvised Magic ones. You might take that to mean "once it's an enhanced default via dabbler this no longer applies", in which case if we're allowing pre-WD defaults for starter spells, the x2 time x2 energy should apply like IM. That seems like a good balancing mechanism.

We can see this is balanced if we look at it this way:
1) if you know a 1st-tier (no-prereqs) spell in a college/style, using Improvised Magic you can default another 1st-tier (no-prereqs) spell in that college/style at -4.
2) if you have 1 point in a 1st-tier spell (always Hard, never VH) that puts you at IQ-2, meaning the default spell is IQ-6
3) MS33 WizDabbler gives 8 hard spells at IQ-6, implying when compared to classic Dabbler that the default is IQ-7.
4) so: defaulting a 1st-tier spell from another 1st-tier spell will always give you a leg up (IQ-6) compared to defaulting it from nothing at all (IQ-7)
5) There's no problems at all since no-double-defaults means knowing some boosted defaults via dabbler (IQ-6 to IQ-4 depending on fraction of CP allotment) would not carry over to higher default uses in things without (fractional) point investment).

It might be grittier as a house rule to make both Improvised Magic and Wizardly Dabbler even less powerful by increasing these multipliers where x2 is the pre-one-point and it's even greater prior to that. Like:

1) x5 cost at default (starting default for all)
2) x4 cost at default+1 (starting default for Improvised Magic from 1pt)
3) x3 cost at default+2
4) x2 cost at default+3
5) x1 cost at default +4 (value with full 1 CP in it)
That seems like a lot, but it's still less than the x10 energy Thaumatology suggests for allowing non-mage casters. These of course would all stack, so you might have a non-mage who knows no spells at all casting a 1st-tier spell at true-default for x50 energy. That's so prohibitive it basically can't happen for normal humans, so instead of a hard cap you have a soft cap.

Example:

1) at IQ-7, someone with IQ 10 can just barely attempt (effective skill 3) a spell anyway. Anything that would give a -1 penalty (like -1 per yard standard range for anything you're not touching) reducing the spell below 3 would make you unable to attempt the spell in the first place.
Except maybe with an exception for blocking spells? Not sure if someone who knows Shield (M167) at IQ-6 with an IQ of 8 (effective skill 2) would be able to try to cast it or not.
I'm wondering if spells might be an exception (you can ALWAYS attempt them, they just never succeed on a 3 if below effective skill 2) where you can "use" them even if effective skill is lower (ie like firing a gun if range penalties reduce it below 3).
2) failures only cost 1 energy, unless they are critical, so failed attempts won't necessarily kill you, but at IQ-7 you've got a high likelihood of crit-failing inherently, and if you apply the "Burning HP" penalty below, this makes it even more likely.

3) a non-critical success is going to wipe out all your FP, and then you need to make four consecutive HT rolls to see if you would survive Burning HP (B237) otherwise you don't burn the HP and just fall unconscious

4) even if you pass those HT rolls, each HP burned gives -1 to skill, so you're looking at -40 to effective skill, which as highlighted in 1, means you're not going to be able to attempt the skill unless you had an IQ of 50 to begin with.
That's so extremely prohibitive I actually want some means of bonus-hunting to compensate for it. Like maybe allowing the x30 time = +5 bonus Time Spent to be usable for spellcasting. Even with that it's still kind of impossible with the amount of FP and HP most people have.

For it to be plausible you'd have to go to a place where non-mages count like mages (ie no x10 cost in High Mana) or where a success costs no energy (Wild Mana) to avoid the need for Burning HP to supplement inadequate FP.

6 other options I can think of:

1) use Threshold spells, can fuel higher energy demands:
2) supplement FP by taking on Corruption
3) supplement FP by taking on Black Magic
4) supplement FP with Sacrifices
5) supplement FP by a friendly mage using M89 Share Energy on you
6) maybe you have some kind of ER from a friendly Familiar (who should probably be designed with ER: Affects Others?)
Another approach via house rules could be to allow "fractional energy" versions of spells (ie 0.1 energy x 50 = 5 FP) with 'fractional outcomes' like for example instead of Ignite Fire doing 1 Burning it does 0.1 Burning (would also require dealing with fractional HP and so on).

In the case of information spells (like M72 Seek Fire) since you can't divide damage, instead you could perhaps take skill penalties similar to Time Spent. So for example if you spend 90% as much energy (rather than 90% as much time) you would get -9 to skill.

In that case you'd be always failing and getting the wrong information, but you'd still be practising the skill, since the requirements for spending CP to learn/impove don't actually require successes, just attempts.

Another thing I just thought of in terms of needing to witness a spell being cast: if you have a Magic Item that can cast the spell (or a bunch of scrolls, or spellstones) that might qualify too. It's not entirely clear: do you need to witness the ritual, or just the outcome?

Rituals are optional for high-skill mages, so maybe that means items that cast it (don't need a ritual) or mages who cast without rituals, don't qualify as precedent to learn a skill?

I think maybe best approach is if you don't witness the rituals (learning from an item, or a subtle mage omitting steps) then M9's Alternate Magic Rituals box penalties ought to apply to your Quick Learning Under Pressure IQ roll to use the skill at default, because the penalized version is the ONLY version you know how to use. Once you actually learn it you could then avoid the penalties by coming up with your own ritual words/movements, of course.
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