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Old 12-22-2019, 10:39 AM   #21
Eukie
 
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

Make it a Talent or Wildcard skill with (Aspected, Search & Rescue only, -20%)?
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Old 12-22-2019, 11:09 AM   #22
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

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Originally Posted by Eukie View Post
Make it a Talent or Wildcard skill with (Aspected, Search & Rescue only, -20%)?
In principle, sure. In practice, it's way too narrow to be a Wildcard skill without loading it up with special benefits; and those are cinematic in nature, which S&R isn't. I don't see a problem in principle with extending the notion of Wildcard Skills to narrower and more realistic applications, resulting in something that's constructed as a subset of the rules for constructing a Wildcard skill but which is so limited that it doesn't qualify for the tripled cost that Wildcard Skills must pay. It's what I was considering in my earlier post. I don't see a problem with this as long as there are solid guidelines as to what is and isn't reasonable in such a not-really-Wildcard skill.

Talent is potentially more reasonable than Wildcards, in that it allows for smaller collections of skills and doesn't have a built-in assumption that “this is inherently unrealistic”; but it isn't really a Talent (which isn't just skill bonuses, and which requires special exemption from normal rules to “train it up”, as Talents are generally not something you can learn). You might call it Job Training (from PU3: Talents, p.25), in which case you'd need to design a Search and Rescue occupational template.
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Old 12-22-2019, 02:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Observation is not actually a strong choice. Not only is there the part where Observation lets you look for stuff without obviously doing so it also turns up items that are "concealed or tacticaly significant". People who need rescuing are not concealed. They may just be hard to spot and Tactics is an even worse fit that Observation.

Search is even less relevant. That's for finding conceled objects at very close ranges, usually touch.

So you're looking for Gurps' Skill for trained visual Perception at medium and longer ranges and I can't think of another applicable one. It might be there's nothing but Per and Acute Vision.
That's what I was thinking - the only thing for the Search part of "Search & Rescue" is a Perception roll, while the Rescue part depends on the situation, for example, in a flood situation you just need to do some boating and get people to high ground.
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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
But for any detailed usage, like a search and rescue campaign, I'd want individual skills to matter. Otherwise, how would you build a rescue team? Every member takes Search and Rescue skill. Done. Not much fun.

For a game that dives into the topic, I'd like to see that team composed of the expert tracker (Tracking), the master survivalist (Survival, Naturalist, etc.), the crack doctor (a bunch of med skills), and so on. All with at least a little Search and Rescue added, sure, but also one PC with very high Search and Rescue skill. That character would take the lead in key tasks not covered by the other skills.
This is my major concern about this new skill - does it really nerf an adventure where the whole point is to Search & Rescue? I can't imagine running an entire such campaign, but a single adventure, maybe.
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Old 12-22-2019, 02:53 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

A third option that comes to mind is Expert Skill: Search & Rescue. Expert Skills cover a lot of the need for a skill that comprises a lot of narrow specialization of other skills, which I'd say S&R is.

As a Hard skill it'd basically be what S&R is anyway (only IQ instead of Per, though I think it'd be reasonable to let it float as needed), but I imagine it'd go down easier and have a very clear intent.
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Old 12-22-2019, 05:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Observation is not actually a strong choice.
It is if you're used to running DF/RPG, because that is exactly what Observation has become:

"This is the talent of spotting the interesting and the dangerous from afar."

End of sentence. The nonsensical "without letting others know that you are watching' has been dropped (IMO watching without being spotted requires Stealth or Acting).

Observation is 'trained' Perception* in DF/RPG, so... extrapolating forward, I'd prefer to see rules for expanding its use to "also observing things when you don't care if you're spotted".

Quote:
Not only is there the part where Observation lets you look for stuff without obviously doing so...
riddle me this: If the PC can observe discreetly, what exactly is stopping them from observing indiscreetly?

In other words, what part of "observe" has become a foreign operation to Observation?

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... it also turns up items that are "concealed or tacticaly significant". People who need rescuing are not concealed.
You've never actually been on a search and rescue. Trust me, rescuees will hide, maybe not on purpose, but when it's cold and they crawl under a bush for warmth and pass out... that's hiding by any other metric.

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They may just be hard to spot...
What exactly are the rules differences between "deliberately Camouflaged behind tall grasses" and "concealed behind tall grasses because that's where the victim passed out"?

Why in your estimation is one worthy of Observation and the other not?

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Search is even less relevant. That's for finding conceled objects at very close ranges, usually touch.
Which is why I struck it out.

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So you're looking for Gurps' Skill for trained visual Perception at medium and longer ranges and I can't think of another applicable one. It might be there's nothing but Per and Acute Vision.
Akshully... if you go through Basic and look for uses of Observation you'll find it does exactly this, almost every time.

Seriously, Observation is used whenever the PC is deliberately looking for something that isn't a pat down. To be fair, there is no "trained passive Perception", that's just raising Perception. But trained deliberate searching that isn't a pat down? Observation.

What skill is used versus Camouflage? Observation.
Disguise? Observation.
Filch? Observation.
Third party to a Pickpocket? Observation.
Sleight of Hand? Observation.
Stealth? Raw Perception. Seriously, this was a dropped ball in my opinion and should also have been Observation.

Everyone always gets hung up on "without letting others know that you are watching", but that is literally the least part of this skill.
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Old 12-22-2019, 07:15 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Observation is not actually a strong choice. Not only is there the part where Observation lets you look for stuff without obviously doing so it also turns up items that are "concealed or tacticaly significant". People who need rescuing are not concealed.
Fair enough. By the book, Observation is indeed a "watch from hiding" skill (and from the BS examples, one that seems particularly attuned to collecting information of military value). Over the years, the skill does seem to have taken on more of a "general trained Perception" aspect in GURPS books, and that's how I use it too, but going strictly by the BS skill writeup, you could argue that it's a much more specific thing.

Which is fine. Observation has been brought up as an example of an existing skill of use in search and rescue operations, but if that doesn't seem right, it can be ejected from the conversation. That still leaves other existing skills that fit the bill, and still leaves the question (as I see it): Does a new Search and Rescue skill fill a valid gap not covered by existing skills? For me, it's a tentative "yes, there's something we can use this skill for, that existing skills don't cover". Others may not agree.
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Old 12-23-2019, 02:35 AM   #27
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

People seem to be turning the side benefit of not being particularly suspicious while on the lookout into a central shtick of the skill that somehow negates its other benefits (such as standing in for Perception in various situations).
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Old 12-23-2019, 04:40 AM   #28
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

I'm not sure why the "not being noticed part" isn't covered by the Shadowing skill (or Stealth or Camouflage), and leave only the "notes important details for use in court, by analysts, by tacticians, etc" part for Observation. But prolly this should all go to the appropriate Skill-of-the-Week thread.
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Old 12-23-2019, 04:57 AM   #29
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

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I'm not sure why the "not being noticed part" isn't covered by the Shadowing skill (or Stealth or Camouflage), and leave only the "notes important details for use in court, by analysts, by tacticians, etc" part for Observation. But prolly this should all go to the appropriate Skill-of-the-Week thread.
It is... but Shadowing in the case of Shadowing itself (and indeed, Observation is at a -5 to observe a mark while following them if you're 'defaulting').

Shadowing is another one of those "this shouldn't be it's own skill Skills" (which is why I houseruled it away in my games).
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Old 12-23-2019, 05:56 AM   #30
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Default Re: [Disasters: Hurricane] Skill of the Week: Search and Rescue

Well, I mean "isn't only covered by Shadowing."

I think Shadowing is fine as a skill, as it's something we see secret agents being trained in and using on screen all the time. But if the difference between Observation's not being seen and Shadowing's not being seen is whether you're moving or not, that seems like an odd distinction between the skills.
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