[Magic] Healing College - rationale behind the penalty

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

DF clerics have it considerably easier than AD&D clerics. AD&D characters lose HP more frequently than DF clerics (because no active defenses, just HP attrition), and have a smaller spellcasting daily budget. A mid-level AD&D party whose 10th level fighter has lost all of his 65 HP could consume the bulk of a 10th level cleric's spell capacity all by himself: you've got four Cure Light Wounds (4d8) plus three Cure Serious Wounds (6d8+3) plus two Cure Critical Wounds (6d8+6). Mr. Fighter is okay now, but now Mr. Cleric is not healing Mr. Thief and Mr. Wizard today nor casting any Tongues spells or Spell Immunity or Protection From Evil 10' Radius or Flame Strike.

Well, if it's AD&D the Cleric either loaded up on nothing but the healing spells in levels that have them, or the party simply doesn't have that much healing.

In DF on the other hand, a severely wounded fighter who's down to -25 out of 14 HP will require about 3 Major Healing spells from a PI 6 cleric to recover 36 HP, which requires about an hour and a half of attention from the cleric (assuming Recover Energy 15+ and an ER reserve, which a mid-career cleric should have). Healing Slumber could also heal Mr. Fighter and Mr. Thief and Mr. Wizard in a single day even if healing penalties had made Major Healing infeasible. And Great Healing is yet a third healing method that would work. And Mr. Cleric can still fight and cast other terrific spells after a short rest, instead of being done for the day.

I note you consider a pretty high PI cleric in DF and Great Healing, but put the AD&D Cleric at a level where they can't access Heal.

But this hasn't been a relevant comparison for the vast majority of gamers for a couple of decades now. A bog-standard D&D5 10th level Cleric should be able to manage about ~260 HP of healing if they blow all their slots on Cure Wounds (and a 10th level Fighter will have maybe 100HP). For multiple targets, using Prayer of Healing will increase this considerably. Of course this only matters if you're pressing on right away and everyone's already burned their Short Rest healing, or you can't take more than a 10 minute break.

For most people playing 'D&D' today, DF's healers are the ones suffering.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I've made a major mistake. It's a doozy and needs to be addressed now. "The whitest of white magic" isn't flavor text. (Flavor text would be the text in green font which preceded it), instead(, as black font text,) it is part of the first sentence setting out the basic rules and philosophy regarding the college.

Thank you for letting me know; as I believe I stated earlier, I've not read GURPS Magic for Fourth Edition. Indeed, since I never found anyone who wanted it and didn't want to just toss it, I still have GURPS Magic Second Edition, which is actually for the Third Edition rules. Under normal circumstances, this might disqualify me from the conversation, but I do believe the larger history of the text is relevant here.

Please, let me present some bits of the previous edition that may shed some light on the modern iteration. Oh, and GURPS Magic Second Edition is totally black and white except for its cover. So there isn't an obvious delineation between what is "flavor text" and what is intentional rules text... and why I believe those who crafted the modern GURPS Magic were forced to make judgment calls about such things.

Originally Posted by GURPS Magic Second Edition, page 3

THE very first roleplaying was fantasy roleplaying. No game system is complete without a good treatment of magic. That's why GURPS Fantasy was our very first GURPS worldbook. That book presented both the magic system and a brief look at the world of Yrth, a magical game background.

However, feedback from GURPS players indicated that they wanted an entire book devoted to magic, with the Yrth material moved and expanded to a book of its own. There were also a lot of requests that the Basic Set cover magic.

Your wish is our command. The third edition of GURPS Basic Set includes a chapter on magic, and over 100 spells.... but there's room for much more. And here it is. This is the book for GMs and players who are ready for a campaign with high-powered magic.

Originally Posted by GURPS Magic Second Edition, page 4

Some religions teach that magic is inherently evil, and that any magic-user is endangering his immortal soul. Certainly, badly-cast spells seem to attract the attention of something powerful and malicious ─ and occasionally a clumsy spellcaster is devoured by a genuine demon!

But it is also true that many good men know and use magic ─ and the saintliest of these seem to be immune to the worst magical "fumbles."

No one really knows. The consensus is that magic, of itself, is neither good nor evil. It is the way a spell is used ─ the intent behind it ─ that determines whether magic is "white" or "black". But there is no doubt that certain forms of magic ─ human sacrifices, for example - are inherently evil and are despised by all honest mages.

Originally Posted by GURPS Magic Second Edition, page 49

These spells are the whitest of white magic. Yet the healing spells are precursors of the dark spells of necromancy... Some healers even refuse to learn Resurrection, because of the "unclean" necromantic knowledge required to make the spell function.

Anyone who tries to heal himself will have a skill penalty equal to the amount of injury he has. For example, if a wizard takes 4 hits and tries to heal himself, he will be at a -4 to cast any healing spell on himself.

Some Healing spells are marked "One Try." If such a spell should fail, the caster (and any assistants) may not try again on that wound. If it didn't work the first time, it won't work at all for that caster(s). If "One Try" is specified without a time period, the caster(s) may never try again.

A critical failure with a healing Spell will always have some appropriate bad effect on the patient ─ aggravating the injury, creating a new wound, or the like.

How is any of this relevant?

The history of GURPS Magic is messy. Even now, especially in light of the section we're discussing, it seems like there are artifacts from older rule sets that maybe shouldn't still be here, but potentially even setting-specific assumptions.


This post is already monstrous, so I beg your indulgence. The above is important for understanding where I'm coming from. I am aware this could be another one of those "Otaku, you're making too many assumptions" or "Otaku, this isn't Third Edition" moments.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I don't entirely agree with your comment that Skill (meaning high skill) is for "manipulating far, far more complex."

I don't think I entirely agree with my original comment, so please let me try again! First, the original chunk:

Originally Posted by Otaku

Yes, some things you're magically manipulating are far, far more complex than others, but that's what Skill levels (both for the Spell and the related field of knowledge) are all about. This has practically become a trope in isekai stories; one reason for the newly summoned (or reincarnated or whatever) person from the "real world" being gifted in spellcraft is them applying real-world principles to what it is they're manipulating with the magic. Likewise, if intent matters, let it matter regardless of Spell or College.

Yes, I had to include the confusing "example" I gave, because it adds context, even if it wasn't the best way to go about it. Indeed, I think I "smooshed" two separate things together; the deceitful complexity with which magic operates, and how real-world knowledge might allow one to better apply their magic to the world.

The magic system lets you manipulate nature, or even reality, in a more direct manner than "mundane" physical interactions. The complexity of these interactions is often misleading. For the magic to work the way it does, sometimes it is operating on the microscopic, the molecular, the atomic, or even the subatomic levels. I think: I'm far from an expert at any of these! I mean, a pet peeve of mine is how often people underestimate the beautiful complexity of the human body...

...which is why I think it makes sense both mechanically and "storywise" for certain real-world (or setting appropriate, non-magical) Skills to affect one's spell-casting. Other traits may as well; some of this might be available with an IQ roll to a caster from the appropriate Tech Level! I don't know the specifics of how this ought to work, though.

Getting back on topic, this is why I have doubts about the self-healing penalty being about "selfishness". Plenty of situations where healing one's self is beneficial to others. I mean, with PCs, it even seems likely that NPCs are going to rely on them for protection.

I'm once again going to refrain from quoting the rest of your comment because... yeah, I think we mostly agree. Or at least, are of similar inclination, like "How much should Spell variants cost?". I suppose I can add in maybe for minor variants, handle it like firearm familiarities; for every X character points invested in the Skill, you know Y minor variants?

Again, thanks for the discussion!

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I note you consider a pretty high PI cleric in DF and Great Healing, but put the AD&D Cleric at a level where they can't access Heal.

Yes, but come on, I let the AD&D cleric be 10th level and max out on healing spells, and the DF cleric is a starting cleric! Arguably the AD&D cleric should be only 5th level or so.

There's a lot of competition for 6th level slots too, and you can't even cast them without rolling Wis 17+. If you do manage to roll Wis 17+, Heal is a great spell but so are Conjure Animals, Blade Barrier, Anti-Animal Shell, and Wall of Thorns. The DF cleric can heal _and_ use Shield, Armor, Flaming Weapon, etc.

But this hasn't been a relevant comparison for the vast majority of gamers for a couple of decades now. A bog-standard D&D5 10th level Cleric should be able to manage about ~260 HP of healing if they blow all their slots on Cure Wounds (and a 10th level Fighter will have maybe 100HP). For multiple targets, using Prayer of Healing will increase this considerably. Of course this only matters if you're pressing on right away and everyone's already burned their Short Rest healing, or you can't take more than a 10 minute break.

For most people playing 'D&D' today, DF's healers are the ones suffering.

I was responding to a claim about AD&D clerics, because AD&D is awesome, so I will leave the 5E discussion to those who don't enjoy AD&D.

But DF clerics are completely fine. Plenty of healing, plenty of energy left for other things.

[Rupert]

One other thing - AD&D, rules as written, that fighter that was one 0HP is dead, so mere healing spells won't work anyways. Thus he's really like a DF character that's down on -5xHP (and for high HT DF characters being merely somewhat negative isn't really a fair comparison to an AD&D fighter on low HP).

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Rupert

One other thing - AD&D, rules as written, that fighter that was one 0HP is dead, so mere healing spells won't work anyways.

Unless you're using the rules that a character at 0 HP is mortally wounded, unconscious and will lose 1 HP per round (1 minute) until they die for real at -10 HP.

But the basic point is a given.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I was responding to a claim about AD&D clerics, because AD&D is awesome, so I will leave the 5E discussion to those who don't enjoy AD&D.

The two fantasy systems I've played most are AD&D and DF. Trying to compare their hit point economies is hard: the GURPS active defence mechanics mean that characters get hurt a lot less often, so healing is much less of a routine activity. It's commonplace in DF to get through a serious fight without any of the PCs being injured. If that happens in AD&D, there's usually been a walkover.

[pawsplay]

I think the reason is that you can feel it working. I think it is analogous to First Aid on yourself, and I don't think the standard GURPS Magic is saying a few words and snapping your fingers. It costs energy. Just as a fire magic may go from manipulating a candle flame to throwing a fireball, a healing mage actually learns to manipulate wounded tissues. So there you are, trying to get your intestines to go back in by reaching out with magic and sensing your injuries.

It's certainly not a rationale that fits in with many conceptions of magic, but it makes a certain sense within a certain framing of the classic GURPS magic.

[sir_pudding]

I just allow you to ignore this with a perk in DF. I thought it was published somewhere, but can't find it now.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I just allow you to ignore this with a perk in DF. I thought it was published somewhere, but can't find it now.

It was in my Hidden Knowledge article you reviewed. I had to cut it for space and non-topicality.