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Old 08-15-2021, 11:18 PM   #11
JohnPaulB
 
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Default Re: Fine Shields

I would also say there is not a slot for Fine Shields. If I recall correctly, Steve himself wrote that what makes the Fine Platemail is the fitting of the armor to the owner. There is no half-plate, chain-mail or leather. I wonder though, if a Master Tailor couldn't make a Fine Cloth Armor as it could be 'tailored' to the wearer'?

Jimmy beat me to the punch in referencing "Not By Iron Alone" HEXAGRAM #4.

There may be racial armors made by master armorers that can give bonuses, though.

I houseruled that certain dwarven Master Armorers could make Dwarven Chainmail which stops 1 more point; Elven Silversilk (cloth) made by elven Armorer/Tailor which stops 1 more point.
Goblin armor has been mentioned in these lists or elsewhere.
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Old 08-16-2021, 08:14 AM   #12
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Default Re: Fine Shields

My house rules permit fine partial plate, fine chainmail (though limited to +1 damage protection and no reduction in DX penalty) as well as 'full mail' that is intended to fill the role of the high-medieval armors composed of multiple layers of overlapping mail (-4/-4). So, fine full mail would be -5/-4. It's pretty good, but it should be.
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Old 08-16-2021, 08:45 AM   #13
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Default Re: Fine Shields

Would you allow for well-balanced large shields?
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Old 08-16-2021, 09:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: Fine Shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Would you allow for well-balanced large shields?
Have Tony Stark make it. :?
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Old 08-17-2021, 01:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Fine Shields

A "balanced" large shield that was -0 DX would be the kind of change that shifts the game balance, since presumably it would cost well under $1000, it would create a situation where people who don't use a balanced shield are really sub-optimal, and so on.

Every time you add something that most well-supplied people can get pretty easily, that gives you any kind of stat adjustment like that, you rearrange the balance of the game. It's possible to do that deliberately and intentionally, but if it's just "here's another thing that gives a +1" without considering game balance, it will tend to make things go a bit lopsided.
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Old 08-17-2021, 09:07 PM   #16
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Default Re: Fine Shields

This thread should be in the House Rules section.

I would say a well balanced fine shield would need to have been made from a very strong yet light substance. Made from Mithril and weighing only half a normal large shield, the Mithril alone would be worth $100,000 silver. Plus it would take a master armorer to make it, so that would add to the cost. Say it is worth at least $120,000. DX -0 and stops 2. Hmm, since it is mithril I might even let it stop 3 damage.

A rare find and not to be found just laying around any old armor shoppe. Most likely it needs to be won by beating its owner in combat.

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Old 08-18-2021, 04:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: Fine Shields

So fine and very fine shield have the same stats, except that they weigh less and last longer?
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Old 08-18-2021, 05:33 PM   #18
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I think of shields as too basic an item to come in a fine version, much less a very fine version. Way too complicated I'd say. Love Axyl's Mithril shield though, I'd definitely use that, keeping it at a 6-figure price.

Other than that, only enchanted shields should convey any bonus (and if stacking enchantment on top of Mithril, make it a 8-figure price - just one such shield in a campaign world would be a game changer).
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Old 08-18-2021, 07:43 PM   #19
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Default Re: Fine Shields

Douglas Cole, of Gaming Ballistic fame, has done a lot of thinking about shields--well, Viking shields, anyway. His blogposts about shields are worth a read, though some of it will make more sense if you speak GURPS.

Some of what Douglas talks about makes me think that it aligns pretty well with Joe Tippets's idea of shields giving DX penalty to incoming attacks. It also makes me think that the Shield talent could perhaps have an advanced version that offers some cool offensive disarming techniques. They'd have to be simple enough to fit TFT's flavor, though.
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Old 08-19-2021, 09:09 AM   #20
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Default Re: Fine Shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Douglas Cole, of Gaming Ballistic fame, has done a lot of thinking about shields--well, Viking shields, anyway. His blogposts about shields are worth a read, though some of it will make more sense if you speak GURPS.

Some of what Douglas talks about makes me think that it aligns pretty well with Joe Tippets's idea of shields giving DX penalty to incoming attacks. It also makes me think that the Shield talent could perhaps have an advanced version that offers some cool offensive disarming techniques. They'd have to be simple enough to fit TFT's flavor, though.
Kinda fun to re-read that old article and see what I said then, and what I might say now with four or five years behind me.

Having a shield give a DX penalty to attacks is almost certainly the game design technique that has the most verisimilitude. Denying lines of attack is what they do on the defensive. Using the more mobile shield set of these buckler-gripped shields (and many strapped shields as well) as a wall against which the enemy shall beat upon is a terrible, terrible plan for many reasons.

Some shields, though, perhaps the Roman scutum and the Greek aspis, were much, much heavier and thickerr, usually with that weight supported by a strap (called a guige, I believe). These DID provide cover (a DX penalty), were much less mobile (but not immobile), but also were capable of absorbing significant punishment. They could and did weigh 15 to 30 lbs.

The more mobile shields (my most recent shields are 34 or 34.5 inches in diameter and weigh 6 lbs) are also use remarkably offensively, both to keep foes at bay as well as to manipulate their defenses by what can only be considered grappling with them. Pushing the edge and face of the shield against the foe and their shield to open lines, trap weapons, and even occasionally provide a nice bash to the face. Recently I used my shield edge to, um, vigorously pin a partner's wrist to the ground when he thought that reaching under my shield and "fishing" for a blade-to-body contact was a good idea. I then discarded my own blade, relieved him of his, and delivered a (non-contact) mordhau to his head. Fun times.

Ultimately, what the TFT rules with shields providing armor have going for them is simplicity and speed. They don't interfere with game play, they don't add die rolls, and they do mitigate attacks. Boom, there you go. There's really no interaction between the shield and the attacker until after the attacker has done their thing.

This isn't the case with a DX penalty, even. That's super simple (shields might provide -1, -2, and -3 to DX, for example, at small, medium, and large), but still means you have to interrogate the target before rolling your dice. That's not quite as much friction as a counter-roll (roll for shield effectiveness, like GURPS' defense roll), but it's still more than "stops 2 hits."

Escalating further, like shield expertise providing even higher DX penalties if the user can make some sort of skill roll on their turn, is even more friction.

That "friction" can also be described as "complexity" or "tactical depth" depending on how generous or critical you're feeling. But I'll end with this:

1. The existing system works. It's been tested as balanced via years of play.
2. It is absolutely plausible that alternates - like the DX penalty - provide an acceptable balance of increased verisimilitude versus increased friction/complexity

3. In my own experience, shield use is a LOT more complicated and nuanced than most games give it credit for. That doesn't mean that rules must be adjusted, but it does mean that we may be missing out on some fun options.
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