Cast out of HTH

[zot]

Originally Posted by RobW

Yes thanks for the analysis, and we agree an objective existence of some kind is the only way to explain how an illusion could decapitate someone.

This raises even more questions though. Where does it stop? Examples:

• If an illusionary fighter can decapitate you, can it throw you with judo?
• If it can do a judo throw, does it lift you off the ground?
• If it can lift you off the ground, can it lift you onto a ledge instead of throwing you back on the ground?
• If an illusory fighter can lift you onto a ledge, can an illusory dragon simply fly off and carry you far far away instead of placing you on the ledge?

These are good. For illusions that don't have "extra power", i.e. weapons, ropes, walls, fire, or shadow, the intersection of illusion and body is exactly where it becomes dicey and the answers to these questions don't seem that clear-cut to me. Which is OK until a player takes it and runs with it, I guess...

Another question: when an illusion "hacks you to pieces inside of your armor" and you're wearing plate, wouldn't getting hit by an illusion of someone with a battleaxe make it appear that your armor was dented, but only until the illusion ends? If this is true, doesn't that mean illusions can cause "secondary illusions". I think this is different from an illusion separating off a piece of itself; maybe viewers actually cause secondary illusions.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by RobW

Thanks, if I'm reading correctly, your view is that illusions affect minds not matter.

Yep.

But if illusions affect minds not matter, they can't hack you to bits inside your unblemished armour. And RAW says this happens. So my questions are really for zot or others using illusions with objective reality.

I just chalk that up to the mystery of the psyche, because people I play with seem to like it that way. If it were totally up to me, an illusion would lead to no physical damage at all.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by zot

Another question: when an illusion "hacks you to pieces inside of your armor" and you're wearing plate, wouldn't getting hit by an illusion of someone with a battleaxe make it appear that your armor was dented, but only until the illusion ends? If this is true, doesn't that mean illusions can cause "secondary illusions". I think this is different from an illusion separating off a piece of itself; maybe viewers actually cause secondary illusions.

You would think so!

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Illusions can explicitly trip but not lift. The victim loses their balance.

When you say "explicitly", are you saying this is spelled out in RAW? Or is this your personal interpretation?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by phiwum

When you say "explicitly", are you saying this is spelled out in RAW? Or is this your personal interpretation?

See illusion pit at ITL 138

[phiwum]

Thanks for the reference. It's not quite that the illusory pit trips the person, but rather makes him think he's falling and he loses his balance and falls down. Surely, an animated figure sticking his leg out could indeed do the same thing (but what if the character doesn't see the leg or the pit?).

Doesn't really say much about whether an animate illusion can lift a living thing that believes in the illusion. There are good reasons to think not, I'd say, but it's not altogether obvious to me.

It's also odd that the pit can't cause damage, but an illusory pool of water can drown one.

Originally Posted by ITL 138

Illusions of inanimate objects are also possible. An illusory
fire will burn, an illusory wall will block you, an illusory pool
can drown you. Disbelief works on such an illusion just as it
does on a real one.

I'll give a quarter to anyone who can tell me what the bolded was supposed to mean. Best guess: replace "a real one" with "an animated illusion", so you have to be better than that guess.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by Shostak

If it were totally up to me, an illusion would lead to no physical damage at all.

Yes, that actually makes sense (I think!) and fits the theme of the Mind Not Matter (MNM) model, non-fatal damage from illusions could take the form of fatigue

[RobW]

Originally Posted by zot

Another question: when an illusion "hacks you to pieces inside of your armor" and you're wearing plate, wouldn't getting hit by an illusion of someone with a battleaxe make it appear that your armor was dented, but only until the illusion ends? If this is true, doesn't that mean illusions can cause "secondary illusions". I think this is different from an illusion separating off a piece of itself; maybe viewers actually cause secondary illusions.

Good point! And this seems like an issue for both the Minds Not Matter (MNM) and Quasi-Reality (QR) models. MNM and QR agree an illusory fighter cannot truly dent armour, or leave genuine footprints in wet sand.

Perhaps the dented armour is the results of observers rationalising what seems to be happening, biased by powerful magic to bring their perceptions into line. The dented armour and other such effects would then reside only in the minds of the observers even for the QR model.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by RobW

Good point! And this seems like an issue for both the Minds Not Matter (MNM) and Quasi-Reality (QR) models. MNM and QR agree an illusory fighter cannot truly dent armour, or leave genuine footprints in wet sand.

Perhaps the dented armour is the results of observers rationalising what seems to be happening, biased by powerful magic to bring their perceptions into line. The dented armour and other such effects would then reside only in the minds of the observers even for the QR model.

Absolutely, you could explain the denting by one seeing what they expect, but then when an illusory archer loses an arrow, you'd expect to see that, too. One difference is that you wouldn't know if the arrow would hit or miss, I suppose, so that prevents the illusion splitting.

The real reason illusions can't split is game balance, I expect.

If you want to make illusions logically coherent, Shostak's ideas are a good solution. I'll buy the inconsistencies and write it off as magic working in mysterious ways. That requires more ad hoc rulings during game play, sadly, but I can live with that.

[zot]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Absolutely, you could explain the denting by one seeing what they expect, but then when an illusory archer loses an arrow, you'd expect to see that, too. One difference is that you wouldn't know if the arrow would hit or miss, I suppose, so that prevents the illusion splitting.

The real reason illusions can't split is game balance, I expect.

If you want to make illusions logically coherent, Shostak's ideas are a good solution. I'll buy the inconsistencies and write it off as magic working in mysterious ways. That requires more ad hoc rulings during game play, sadly, but I can live with that.

I think the weirdness of TFT's illusions is a huge part of the fun of it all and fits very well with the rest of the game...