[Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

[Anaraxes]

I think the anti-supernatural bit in the skill description is to make sure people don't mistake the skill as giving any actual supernatural power that you didn't pay extra for in the form of Medium, Oracle, Magery, etc. In a world where the supernatural works, I could see using the skill as the base for a Skills For Everyone setup. On the other hand, if Fortune-Telling is the skill for true mediums and seers -- what skill are the charlatans using? Even in a magical setting, there are fakers and poseurs.

Taking it as a Professional skill leaves the info-gathering as the odd bit sticking out. Perhaps that part should just be excised, with a note that the professional con man probably uses Fast-Talk + Elicitation, and the stage magician needs Performance to make it entertaining. Too many skill rolls that way, though: you need to succeed on rolls for the Elicitation to make the Fortune-Telling work at all; you need the Fortune-Telling for the patter, details of your Tarot or lines on the palm or whatnot, and Performance to suitably impress the mark. This version really reminds me of Soldier - lots of overlap with skills that already exist elsewhere, but lumped together into one place to avoid clutter and to provide a chance to succeed with one roll instead of having to score three (and thus need higher skills to get the same chance of success given multiple rolls).

[Anders]

GURPS Fantasy has rules (p.F150) for using Fortune-Telling for "true divination".

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Also in the one Modern no magic game I recall it used to gather info and clues, more like a con.

That is precisely what I'm after. It so happens that in Clancy's THS game, my character has it at level 19 due to a mix of IQ, Charisma and Empathy (with the single Character Point thrown at the skill). I want to pull off some Patrick Jane moments (in the 'The power of the hyperperceptive mind' sort of way, i.e. replacing belief in mysticism with belief in the hidden non-supernatural potential of the human mind). But the closest thing to a game mechanic allowing me to do that in RAW is Elicitation.

Come to think of it, Elicitation should at the very least default to Fortune-Telling.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

On the other hand, if Fortune-Telling is the skill for true mediums and seers -- what skill are the charlatans using? Even in a magical setting, there are fakers and poseurs.

Well, Basic Set present it as the skill of charlatans gathering info through non-supernatural means and presenting it to the audience. That's the point I'm making.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Taking it as a Professional skill leaves the info-gathering as the odd bit sticking out. Perhaps that part should just be excised, with a note that the professional con man probably uses Fast-Talk + Elicitation, and the stage magician needs Performance to make it entertaining. Too many skill rolls that way, though: you need to succeed on rolls for the Elicitation to make the Fortune-Telling work at all; you need the Fortune-Telling for the patter, details of your Tarot or lines on the palm or whatnot, and Performance to suitably impress the mark. This version really reminds me of Soldier - lots of overlap with skills that already exist elsewhere, but lumped together into one place to avoid clutter and to provide a chance to succeed with one roll instead of having to score three (and thus need higher skills to get the same chance of success given multiple rolls).

I'd rather not dump a perfectly interesting skill concept, but rather hope to see it expanded with actual mechanics, like THS:CT and Social Engineering did for Propaganda.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

GURPS Fantasy has rules (p.F150) for using Fortune-Telling for "true divination".

Kinda nice (no, really, I wish I saw it when I was GMing Celestial Ocean!), but falls outside the scope of the SE application.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If it's a Professional Skill, like Barber, why does it take up more than ¼ of a page?

Because it's a professional skill that consists of conning people which gives it a little added utility, and because nobody will imagine that Barber could actually be a supernatural power.

Also, it very explicitly does not work for supernatural stuff - merely allows telling about it in an 'entertaining' manner.

Actually it is explicitly isn't a paranormal power in itself. But it can be used for Skills for Everyone (which was introduced later on as an option I like to use). Other skills I like to use are Mathematics, Singing, Hypnotism, Poetry, Pressure Points, Psychology, Religious Ritual and Philosophy

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Because it's a professional skill that consists of conning people which gives it a little added utility, and because nobody will imagine that Barber could actually be a supernatural power.

Okay, so what we need is a nice mechanic that makes it worthwhile to use FT for cons, and not just rely on Elicitation to get the very same info.

It's kinda like the case of Parry Missile Weapons: it's a whole damn skill, so it better provide the PCs with a broad and powerful range of Techniques matching the skill description.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Actually it is explicitly isn't a paranormal power in itself. But it can be used for Skills for Everyone (which was introduced later on as an option I like to use). Other skills I like to use are Mathematics, Singing, Hypnotism, Poetry, Pressure Points, Psychology, Religious Ritual and Philosophy

Okay, it can be used in Skills for Everyone. But so can Physics, or Math, or Erotic Art. (This seems to suspiciously parallel the Physics/reactor posts.)

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Okay, so what we need is a nice mechanic that makes it worthwhile to use FT for cons, and not just rely on Elicitation to get the very same info.

Elicitation is already part of Fortune Teller. It's in the first paragraph and there's no reason why you can't get a technique for fortune tellers who are particularly good at that part of the skill.

But Fortune Teller is primarily useful not for its ability to extract useful information but for it's ability to con/entertain people into doing stuff. Stuff like giving you money (usually), but more ambitiously for things like convincing that high-level Nazi that Normandy doesn't need reinforcement.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Come to think of it, Elicitation should at the very least default to Fortune-Telling.

I would hesitate to do that, because extracting information from people in this way might be a primary task of Fortune-Telling, the way hitting people with your fists is a primary task of Karate (and therefore there is no karate technique of "Fist Blow"). After all, the information in Fortune-Telling has to come from somewhere.

Bill Stoddard

[David Johnston2]

The difference between what Fortune Telling usually does and what Elicitation does, is that Fortune Telling just trolls around for random educated guesses that can be used to impress the target rather than looking for any kind of specific information.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

and because nobody will imagine that Barber could actually be a supernatural power.

The Tonsor's Son by Michael John Grist.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Okay, so what we need is a nice mechanic that makes it worthwhile to use FT for cons, and not just rely on Elicitation to get the very same info.

It's worthwhile because it gives you an built-in approach. The mark comes to you and basically asks to be conned.