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Old 04-07-2020, 11:41 AM   #1
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

Are most pole weapons excluded from being a +1/+2 damage fine weapon?

ITL page 123 says, "A person who has the Master Armourer talent can make a
sword, polearm, hammer, mace, or ax (but no other weapon)
so well that it does extra damage, or effectively increases its
user’s DX, or both." and then in the next paragraph it further clarifies, "Good workmanship can give a weapon such good balance
that its user gets +1 DX (never more than +1). A cutting
weapon
can also be made of such good metal that it does
either 1 or 2 extra hits of damage."

From this I take it that all "sword, polearm, hammer, mace, or ax" may be made to have +1 DX. That is all weapons on the Sword table (except Dagger, which has its own caveat), all weapons on the Axe table (except Morning Stars as these are not a hammer, mace or ax; nor club as by definition these are crude weapons), and all weapons on the Pole Weapons table.

But because it specifies only "a cutting weapon" may have +1/+2 damage, which weapons get excluded? Clearly hammers (1 handed or great), mace and morning star are not cutting weapons. Nor does a javelin, trident, pike or cavalry lance seem like cutting weapons as their tips are for piercing (often like a bodkin tip). What about a spear head, they seem somewhat bladed? Halberd and Pike Axes are definitely bladed. Is this too arbitrary?

Also, is a main gauche such a specialty weapon that it does not qualify? Or is this "left handed dagger" count as a dagger? It is not mentioned, unless the dagger reference includes it.


To summarize what I am going with:

- no fine available: clubs and morning star.

- Damage +1/+2 but no DX +1 fine available: dagger and main gauche.

- DX+1 but no Damage bonus available: hammer, great hammer, mace, javelin, trident, pike and cavalry lance.

- DX and Damage fine bonuses available: all swords, all axes, hatchet, spear, halberd, and pike axe


Just curious what others have decided for fine weapon modifiers.

Last edited by Axly Suregrip; 04-07-2020 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:01 PM   #2
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

An excellent question, and one that wants attention since it's not clear what the rules mean.

In my original TFT campaign, IIRC, we weren't clear what the rules meant, but at some point I gave up trying and decided to just allow fine everything up to +2 damage, +1 DX, though fine weapons were rare, as tended to be master armorers who were immediately available to make weapons for adventurers.

(Then we started using GURPS, which has clearer (except now there are multiple different versions) and slightly more detailed fine weapon rules.)


To my eyes, I would interpret the RAW as:

* "Cutting" weapons can go up to +2 damage, and other weapons listed can go up to +1 damage.

* Daggers can go up to +1 damage, but no DX improvement.

As for what weapons qualify for +2 or +1 damage, I read this as:

+2: Saber, Shortsword, Broadsword, Bastardsword, Two-Handed Sword, Greatsword,
Hatchet, Small Axe, War Axe, Battleaxe,
Halberd, Pikeaxe

+1:
Dagger, Rapier,
Hammer, Mace, Morningstar, Great Hammer,
Javelin, Spear, Cavalry Lance, Pike


Note I do include Morningstar, both because it means what's called a "mace & chain" OR a spiked mace, both of which are mace-y, AND because Steve has a published example of a fine +1 damage morningstar in one of his adventures (to avoid spoilers, I'm not listing where).

As fas as Main Gauche, I could see deciding it's a dagger and allowing +1. Makes sense. On the other hand, it is a bit of a weird weapon, and now that it's been made rather better than it originally was, I might want to limit its potential greatness in that way.
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:02 PM   #3
Shadekeep
 
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Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

I've been more generous with what I allow, though I must admit that I didn't absorb the "cutting edge" comment as a qualifier, so I may not be the best barometer.

Basically if it's made of metal I allow it to do extra damage, edged or not. A hammer can have a spike added, a trident can have additional barbs, etc. Similarly, almost any weapon can be balanced to add DX. Think of precision weighted daggers and throwing knives.

Crude weapons, such as clubs, quarterstaves, and cestus(eses) can't be made fine, nor thrown weapons like boomerangs. I do allow arrows to be finely made to do +1 damage, and I would argue the bow itself could be crafted to convey a +1 DX, even though missile weapons are not specified in the fine rules either.

As I say, I'm not exactly canon.
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:24 PM   #4
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
An excellent question ....
Thanks Skarg. I like your interpretation. I never thought of it as +1 damage vs +2 damage. Rereading it, this looks like what it is saying. And so, all your recommendation fall into place.
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:27 PM   #5
Shadekeep
 
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Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

Yes, I think that is what's intended by the "cutting" qualifier in that context. Cutting weapons can have the further +1. In Hexagram #4 there are similar qualifiers where, for example, a pointed weapon (rapier, arrowhead) made of a certain material can get a bonus +1 to damage.
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

I allow the +1 DX for certain throwing weapons to reflect superior balancing.

A dagger, for example, could have +1 DX but the bonus would not apply in melee... only when thrown.
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadekeep View Post
Yes, I think that is what's intended by the "cutting" qualifier in that context. Cutting weapons can have the further +1. In Hexagram #4 there are similar qualifiers where, for example, a pointed weapon (rapier, arrowhead) made of a certain material can get a bonus +1 to damage.
Yes, I really like what you did in the latest Hexagram, Howard, although GMs should always keep a tight rein on special materials IMO... especially those that provide bonuses to damage. I have a few in my own campaign, but w/o limitations the players would almost certainly abuse the idea.

I'm definitely going to use your format for the presentation of special materials in my own game. Good stuff!
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 04-07-2020 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:55 PM   #8
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

The rules are very confusing, and there is other official source material that disagrees with a strict logical reading of those rules. [example redacted to avoid spoilers!] I basically gave up trying to impose a rational interpretation of all this — I figure if the designer doesn't care enough about a rule to use it, then I shouldn't get too stressed out about it. So, my rule is that anything can be made into a 'fine' weapon. For that matter, I also have fine armors beyond Fine Plate.

Last edited by larsdangly; 04-08-2020 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 04-08-2020, 01:15 AM   #9
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

I just allowed anything, even a club, to be finely made if the finances were there and the expertise is available. Why shouldn't my Halfling brawler have a finely made shillelagh if they want one? In practice, although there were some fine weapons in my games, none of them were made for my players, they were found as treasure or given as rewards for service.
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Old 04-08-2020, 07:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: Which weapons may be Fine Weapons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
Yes, I really like what you did in the latest Hexagram, Howard, although GMs should always keep a tight rein on special materials IMO... especially those that provide bonuses to damage. I have a few in my own campaign, but w/o limitations the players would almost certainly abuse the idea.
Thanks, and yes, these should be rare and precious materials. Obtaining even a single item of the unusual materials should be a major event for the players. Otherwise it loses its specialness and turns into one of those D&D campaigns where mithril is found around every corner.

Glad you like the new stuff!
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