Defensive Attack + MaxST

[kirbwarrior]

So weapons with a Minimum ST there's also a maximum ST that's triple the minimum. And the MaxST includes any damage bonuses such as All Out Attack and Weapon Master. That all makes sense, the weapon can only do so much damage.

What I was wondering is if it applies in reverse. If I have a ST80 guy using a ST16 axe, he only gets to use ST48. But defensive attack gives a -1/die of damage. Since his normal swing is 11d, -11 still isn't quite the -4d (average 14) of 7d that ST48 has. Would he be able to use Defensive Attack and still do 'regular' damage while also being able to parry with it?

[the_matrix_walker]

While I think that Max ST is kind of wonky, I think the RAW order of operations here is to find the effective ST, reduce it as needed, and then apply the modifiers, which I believe includes any for Weapon Master and the like.

I don't see how the Max ST rule references AoA or weapon master at all however, the effective ST dictates the initial number of dice and the starting derivation, but the per-die adjustments are not impacted by my recollection. Where is that indicated? Is there a rule I missed?

While I could see the argument and potentially get behind a house rule, I think a defensive attack will reduce the damage output by 1 per die based on the effective ST of the attack.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I don't see how the Max ST rule references AoA or weapon master at all however, the effective ST dictates the initial number of dice and the starting derivation, but the per-die adjustments are not impacted by my recollection. Where is that indicated? Is there a rule I missed?

I don't know if it's said in the books, but I know Kromm has on multiple occasions pointed out that was the intent. What I put together was that the weapon can't do more than MaxST + base weapon damage. If I'm wrong, then the thread question is moot.

My thoughts on why I thought this combo would work is since the weapon has a maximum output of damage, having a higher ST and doing something that effectively lowers that ST would be applied before the maximum. Since muscle-powered weapons don't usually add dice to damage (I think only chainsaw does), the damage effect from All Out and Defensive Attack seem to modify ST itself.

Mind, I'm also interpreting MinST as "the maximum damage you can do without putting undue stress on the weapon", not necessarily the absolute maximum a weapon can do and then break. If that's wrong, then I might just be using weapons wrong overall.

[Balor Patch]

I don't think that MaxST by RAW says anything about die adds. However, replacing MaxST with MaxDmg would reasonably include them.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

I don't think that MaxST by RAW says anything about die adds. However, replacing MaxST with MaxDmg would reasonably include them.

I don't think "MaxDmg" is any sort of official stat especially interacting with the MinSt/MaxSt rule. If it was it would (at least) severely limit those rare "3x damage" Critical Hits..

There was a "Maximum Damage" number that applied to a few weapons in 3e and earlier but that didn't come forward to 4e.

[Varyon]

I don't know if it's RAW under the default rules, but I wouldn't have a problem with a character who had to lower his effective ST due to using a too-light weapon treating this as a Defensive Attack, provided the damage be the lower of the two options (that is, the lower of reduced ST and Defensive Attack at full ST). Indeed, that's how I'd expect a skilled character to use such a weapon (an unskilled one wouldn't check his blows, and ultimately break the weapon in the process of using it, using the rules from "The Broken Blade" Pyramid article - which, I'll note, natively support this interpretation).

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

If it was it would (at least) severely limit those rare "3x damage" Critical Hits..

At least with critical hits there's the implication that the damage could be for any number of reasons, not necessarily you applying more force with the weapon.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't know if it's RAW under the default rules, but I wouldn't have a problem with a character who had to lower his effective ST due to using a too-light weapon treating this as a Defensive Attack, provided the damage be the lower of the two options (that is, the lower of reduced ST and Defensive Attack at full ST). Indeed, that's how I'd expect a skilled character to use such a weapon (an unskilled one wouldn't check his blows, and ultimately break the weapon in the process of using it, using the rules from "The Broken Blade" Pyramid article - which, I'll note, natively support this interpretation).

The bolded was my thoughts, too.

[Plane]

if max thrust is basically thrust provided by 3x the ST needed to wield the weapon without DX penalties I'm not sure why they don't just list that thrust

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Plane

if max thrust is basically thrust provided by 3x the ST needed to wield the weapon without DX penalties I'm not sure why they don't just list that thrust

The formula is very simple (exactly x3 that of MinST) and maxST comes up so little, especially in comparison*, that it can be easily skipped.

*MaxST only comes up in human values when MinST is 6 making 18, however many weapons have a MinST of 11+ meaning it's something any weapon-wielding character is thinking about.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

*MaxST only comes up in human values when MinST is 6 making 18, however many weapons have a MinST of 11+ meaning it's something any weapon-wielding character is thinking about.

There are weapons in Martial Arts with MinST as low as 4, under Knife, p. 228. They aren't likely to be anyone's main weapon, but they can be useful if concealed.