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Old 06-09-2012, 07:17 PM   #31
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

In the fourth century, Athens just loaned a spear and shield to young men graduating from military training. There is a lot of academic handwaving that that can't have been enough kit, but I have my doubts.

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Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru View Post
There's one problem with that. Wealthy in an Iron Age society only gets you $3750, and Comfortable is a paltry $1500 (less than half of what you need to afford the cheap Macedonian gear Dan mentioned)!
Well, that gets us into "GURPS' economic model is simple and breaks if you press it too hard." Its not true that at low TLs people only owned goods worth a few months' cost of living, or that items have stable costs relative to food in all societies, but these assumptions help GMs answer "how much kit can I start out with?" and "How much will this crazy shopping list cost?" Just tweak starting wealth for your campaign so that a Wealthy family can afford a good hoplite kit and a Comfortable family can afford a minimal one as part of its 20% adventuring money.
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:35 PM   #32
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

Sean's suggestion is one option. Work out how much it costs to put a bronze-clad hoplite in the field and base starting wealth (Wealthy) from that. Work out how much it costs to wear leather or linen to battle and base starting wealth (Comfortable) on that - assuming that 20% is spent on gear.

Edit: Another option is to include the wealth of the whole family. Keep in mind that many families could only afford to put one single man into the phalanx at a time. This panoply is the result of the accumulated wealth of an extended family (father, grandfather, uncles), not a single individual.

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Old 06-09-2012, 07:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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I'm not sure whether greaves were mandatory. If not, you can halve the cost of the panoply by not wearing them.
I've not seen a depiction without the greaves myself, but as was demonstrated before my knowledge on these things isn't exactly expansive. XD I'll definitely take that under consideration.

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Well, that gets us into "GURPS' economic model is simple and breaks if you press it too hard." Its not true that at low TLs people only owned goods worth a few months' cost of living, or that items have stable costs relative to food in all societies, but these assumptions help GMs answer "how much kit can I start out with?" and "How much will this crazy shopping list cost?" Just tweak starting wealth for your campaign so that a Wealthy family can afford a good hoplite kit and a Comfortable family can afford a minimal one as part of its 20% adventuring money.
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This is the best option. Work out how much it costs to put a bronze-clad hoplite in the field and base starting wealth (Wealthy) from that. Work out how much it costs to wear leather or linen to battle and base starting wealth (Comfortable) on that - assuming that 20% is spent on gear.
This, this works quite well, especially if you assume housing was crazy expensive (making 20% of Wealthy $10,000--just enough to afford the kit--means starting wealth at that level is $200,000), which it probably could be for families not in a hovel at the time.
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:48 PM   #34
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

After consideration I prefer my second suggestion. You don't have to mess with Wealth levels if you do that.
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:49 PM   #35
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Another option is to include the wealth of the whole family. Keep in mind that most families could only afford to put one single man into the phalanx at a time. This panoply is the resut of the wealth of an extended family, not a single individual.
...Which means the Patron Advantage. Wow, I can't believe that slipped my mind so badly.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:39 AM   #36
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru View Post
Hm...does Signature Gear stack, though? From reading it, it sounds like the RAI may be that each point in SG only gets you an individual item or set of items worth up to half the starting wealth level for the campaign ($375 for TL 2 Ancient Greece).
You can buy multiple levels to reach whatever amount of money would be needed for the equipment.


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I'm not sure whether greaves were mandatory. If not, you can halve the cost of the panoply by not wearing them.
IMO, if you're dealing with members of the phalanx, greaves would be mandatory. You can't have some men extremely vulnerable when the unit's key potency lies in cohesion.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:55 AM   #37
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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Hope so I wrote it :)

Here is a Macedonian phalangite wearing a linen kotthubos and a bronze kausia - pot helm with cheek guards

Chitôn (linen tunic) $48
Kotthubos $263
Ptyruges $38
Knèmides (bronze greaves) $2,200
Sandals $25
Kausia (bronze helmet) $890
TOTAL $3,464
And 2/3 of the cost is bronze greaves? Are greaves really twice as valuable in a fight as all the rest of your armor put together?
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:02 AM   #38
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

I don't know if the Greeks did it but, to save weight the Romans would wear only the left greave (in a phalanx one fights presenting the shield and refusing the weapon). And for a similar but diferent reason, only the right vambrace (what is the Latin, "manica"?) (left arm is "safe" behind the shield).

Doesn't really work in the GURPS rules, just as easy to target the refused side as the presented one.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:14 AM   #39
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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And 2/3 of the cost is bronze greaves? Are greaves really twice as valuable in a fight as all the rest of your armor put together?
Real greaves are an exceptionally intricate piece of armour. The knee and thigh have a very complex shape, and any failure to match it brings pain. In addition, Greek greaves were usually sprung on. The only alternative was to just cover the front of the shins ... but that doesn't seem to have been very popular in the Classical and Hellenistic worlds. In GURPS terms, just protecting the Front lets you halve cost.

In that example, I think the helmet should have +9 CF for single-piece construction. A One-Piece (+9 CF) Bronze (+3 CF) Light Plate Skull (20%) would be $2600 plus a bit for padding. But maybe in the Hellenistic period someone in Macedonia started to make multi-piece helmet bowls ...

The first time and place where we have detailed figures for the price of different types of armour is England in 1300. We have very little evidence of the cost of Greek hopla, just that in the archaic the men who served as hoplites were not much poorer than the men who served as cavalry, and that the class expanded over time due to a combination of economic growth and reduced expectations about kit.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:19 AM   #40
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Default Re: Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

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Doesn't really work in the GURPS rules, just as easy to target the refused side as the presented one.
It does if you use the Focused Defense rule from MA: Gladiators, but that rule clearly wasn't tested enough. It creates problems for gladiators ("to use my shield properly, I reduce the reach of my sword to C, but if I advance to reach C I can't use my shield?"), let alone the other weird and wonderful types of combat which are common in GURPS.
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