[Supers] Minionmancer template?

[oneofmanynameless]

I've found myself wishing I had a base template along the lines of a Supers template ala the ones out of the Supers book, for a type of super whose power mostly manifests as the ability to create and command a variety of minions, be they Zombies, Androids/Robots, Golems, Demons, Humunculi, Elementals, Killer-plants, etc. Obviously this sort of character tends to be a villain rather then a hero in that genre, but I'm still curious.

So here is what I would like:
- Suggestions of useful minion archetypes that could become a list of minion based abilities to pick from. Balance/power guidelines for how that sort of minion should probably be built and what should be emphasized, and/or with a build or build suggestions for the ally/contact/etc advantage that the minionmancer would buy are both extra credit. Ideally these archetypes could find interpretations with any or multiple of the above listed minion types.
- Suggestions of non-minion abilities that could be very useful to a minionmancer in support of being a minionmancer.
- Thoughts on important skills for any minionmancer.
- Suggestions on "playing the part" of a super who can have lots of minions.

Ultimately my end goal is to create a basic 500 cp super template, that is split roughly ~300+/-cp for powers, and ~200+/-cp for everything else. Or, alternatively, a ~400+/-cp lense (split ~300+/-cp for powers, ~100+/-cp for everything else) that could be added to another supers template. Along the lines of most of the templates in the Supers book (like the Shaper, Biomorph, Blaster, or Mesmer), this is the sort of thing that might work best with a few (2-3) worked examples combined with guidelines for how to build your own. So I'll probably aim for that in the end.

Any advice or help would be great!

[Prince Charon]

One option for this is to use a high-level Path/Book magician who specialized in the Embody ritual. I've been working on some templates/lenses for that, though they're not ready for posting yet.

One thing that would be useful for anyone who is leading minions in battle is skill in Tactics. They're minions, so you don't necessarily need Leadership, but you do need to know how to organize your troops.

[David Johnston2]

Really the important template is the minion not the master. The master is just a guy with a heavy investment in Summon Ally Group or distinct Summoned Allies. The question is "what kind of Ally"? Particularly important since it's the minions who get all the action.

[Tinman]

I was intrested in a similar concept character.
I had two threads on it:
#1) http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=176640
#2) http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=176638

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

One option for this is to use a high-level Path/Book magician who specialized in the Embody ritual. I've been working on some templates/lenses for that, though they're not ready for posting yet.

I'm generally trying to stick with powers, so I'm steering clear of skill based magic systems like RPM or Path/Book magic.

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

One thing that would be useful for anyone who is leading minions in battle is skill in Tactics. They're minions, so you don't necessarily need Leadership, but you do need to know how to organize your troops.

Right! Tactics! definitely essential.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Really the important template is the minion not the master. The master is just a guy with a heavy investment in Summon Ally Group or distinct Summoned Allies. The question is "what kind of Ally"? Particularly important since it's the minions who get all the action.

That is very true. For this type of "template" to work you'd expect each worked example to include a clear "this is how it's minions are built", whether that manifests as a racial template, minion lens, and set of guidelines for building the minions; or a fully built template. The key either way, for keeping it something you can improvise off of, is to make them have clear enough guidelines that you could do similar treatments of other concepts. I'll have to think about this.

Originally Posted by Tinman

I was intrested in a similar concept character.
I had two threads on it:
#1) http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=176640
#2) http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=176638

Hmmm... that idea of using a modified Divine Favor by replacing the miracles with abilities that your minion type might have and designing them such that they just look like they were supplied by momentarily called in allies is a very interesting idea for this character concept... if I do say so myself. =p

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

One option for this is to use a high-level Path/Book magician who specialized in the Embody ritual.

I'd love to see an entire sourcebook dedicated to just that single ritual because it's the type of thing that could benefit from having a lot of examples and a lot more explanation.

T160 refers to creating a physical body, yet it's not out of thin air ("whatever special materials the GM feels fit the tradition")

So it raises the question: when you are spending Character Points from this ritual on traits, do you get the properties of those components for free and then enhance them, or do you first need to pay the cost of those components' properties and then any extra Char Points can be spent on other stuff not inherent to the components?

"Marble Statues" is one example: a marble statue envisioned as a "character" is arguably similar to T120's "Silver Harp": even though it can be carved to look like it has "legs", it doesn't really have joints for locomotion so as a character it would be "No Legs (Portable)" unlike say, a marionette, which actually has such joints even if they can't move without external assistance.

Hard to say what DR marble has, B558 gives some for brick, maybe they're similar?

I would view "a marionette as a character" to be quadriplegic (it can't actually move it's limbs, but it does have limbs, so it's not No Limbs: Portable) which means if you used Possession (Spiritual) on it, you'd be quadriplegic too (it's a physical disadvantage) so you'd either need Telekinesis (Animation) or some kind of "Not Paraplegic (requires IQ roll -10%, only while using possession -10%) sort of thing to cancel it out.

Marble Statue OTOH would be like both: even if you could give it moveable legs (remove No Legs disag) it's still basically just a Quadriplegic like a Marionette.

So the issue here is... when we talk about the "net character point value of all gains and losses" do we mean in the sense of "if I had successfully used a Possession advantage on this body" ?

If it were in respect to that, then you would have to buy off physical disadvantages like "Portable" or "Quadriplegic" yet would get a bunch of other physical advantage for free (like higher HP or higher DR or Injury Tolerance) to offset things.

The "Redeye Gareth" situation confuses me though because it's not a singular "character" (ie marble statue) used as a component but instead "assorted animal corpses" stitched together.

I couldn't tell you the physical stats of that body if I managed to use Possession (Spiritual) to inhabit it prior to the completion of Gareth's ritual, since that's never said.

Stuff like "+5 HP" is also confusing because when you use Possession (Spiritual) you have two pools of HP (the insubstantial body tagging along on the inside, and the body you hijacked)

So with Gareth's +5 HP it is unclear whether that's HP the corpse-body is imparting to his insubstantial base-body, or whether he's enhancing the HP of the corpse-body itself.

"losses, apart from Insubstantiality" makes me wonder though: why should you even consider the spirit to have lost insubstantiality?

Insubstantial spirits using Possession (Spiritual) never actually lose the advantage. The whole point of the -30% discount is like I would approximate "-10% because you need to be using it" and "-10% the bodies need to stay in contact to maintain the possession" and "-10% the intangibody needs to be INSIDE the possessed body the whole time too".

Like yeah, you can't make the hijacked body walk through walls (unless maybe you bought Insubstantiality a 2nd time for this purpose? perhaps an Affliction would be more suitable?) but you're still technically using the advantage like you would if you were hiding inside a wall sleeping intangibly to enjoy the cover.

You're still enjoying Invisibility too: someone with X-ray vision or Clairvoyance looking into a possessed victim cannot see an invisible ghost unless it's a non-invisible ghost doing possession (spiritual). It's more akin to being an invisible fairy perched on the shoulder of an elf body non-stop: they can't see you but they can assume where you are because of always hanging out on/inside your minion.

[Phantasm]

For such a template, I'd consider some lenses:

-- Beastmaster, who calls the creatures of the wild to hir side;
-- Squad Leader, who can call up others - soldiers, underworld enforcers, ninjas, etc. - for aid;
-- Drone Rigger, who has a number of robots to assist;
-- Summoner, who can summon angels, demons, elementals, ghosts, and other otherworldly entities to assist (never pairs well with super-normals on bicycles); and
-- Necromancers, so bring out your dead!


YMMV, ofc.

[MrHorizons]

My idea would be to use something like the Improviser template from Supers, but with slightly more value dedicated to specific advantages rather than the Modular Abilities: primarily because these Modular Abilities will be exclusively used for various sorts of Allies.

Though the specific workings of the Modular Abilities would depend on what sort of "minions" the character has, as Phantasm outlined.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Plane

I would view "a marionette as a character" to be quadriplegic (it can't actually move it's limbs, but it does have limbs, so it's not No Limbs: Portable) which means if you used Possession (Spiritual) on it, you'd be quadriplegic too (it's a physical disadvantage) so you'd either need Telekinesis (Animation) or some kind of "Not Paraplegic (requires IQ roll -10%, only while using possession -10%) sort of thing to cancel it out.

Marble Statue OTOH would be like both: even if you could give it moveable legs (remove No Legs disag) it's still basically just a Quadriplegic like a Marionette.

In context, I really don't think starting out treating it as paraplegic or quadriplegic is the way to go, in much the same way that when animating a zombie, you don't start out with the quadriplegic and otherwise immobile quality of a dead body and then calculate removing the disadvantages. Start with a 0-point character, and then add appropriate advantages, disadvantages, and so forth to it.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

when animating a zombie, you don't start out with the quadriplegic and otherwise immobile quality of a dead body and then calculate removing the disadvantages.

If you mean the zombie spell, it's a template so rather than "they all have the same statss" one might take an approach like it takes on original attributes, like if you were missing a hand you're still missing a hand when the necromancer animates you.

Though he might have an easier time of re-attaching it in a workable via some necro-ritual than he might have had in operating on a living person?

Quadriplegic is an interesting Q though: should a Paraplegic brought back as a zombie be able to walk? Why shouldn't that physical disad carry over if One Hand does?

Yet you're right there is an implication of being compared to when alive... it is after all -2 to IQ in respect to an assumed baseline IQ of 10, even though corpses have IQ 0...

So for example, if you suffered brain result in the process of being killed (MA138's Skull Wounds Table for example) should a zombie version of you who was brought back be lower IQ compared to someone who was killed via bleeding out without a skull wound?

The brain still decomposes while dead, so why should it matter if the damage was while alive or after?

Not to mention the Mummy has IQ 10 even though it (like the Skeleton but unlike the Zombie) has "No Brain" advantage, implying their intelligence is noncorporeal magic of some kind.

It makes me wonder if there should be a difference in your "spiritual IQ" depending on how long you had certain IQs during life. Like if you had IQ of 10 and died in minutes after a sniper round to the head, even if you temporarily had IQ-1 (IQ 9) from the Head Wounds Table, it wasn't for long enough to actually make an impression on your "spirit psyche" so to speak.

But say you survived that gunshot wound, and live for 20 years at IQ 9. If you then died you should probably have IQ 9.

It's just hard to say how long it should take for these alterations to affect the subsequent ghosts that we see formed from the dead, which one assumes might be called into play via these rituals.