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Old 07-07-2020, 05:12 PM   #1
kirbwarrior
 
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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Default TK w/Based on Attribute

I remember seeing in one of the powers books (psionics I believe) that you can put Based on Attribute on TK, namely IQ. This lets you do any task with TK based on IQ and thus use IQ-based rolls for normally DX-based (or otherwise) skills. That seems a little good, but the investment needed to both have good enough TK to really want to use this AND wanting to get CM to go along with it seems fine, if a little cheap.

Secondarily, on the magic system I'm working on I'm making 'runes' which are advantages built out as spells and use a particular skill to use them (for instance, a limited Warp that uses Stealth). All spells will function this way (that have rolls to use) because I like the idea that someone who is good in a given skill can look for and train in the spell that 'does' that skill magically.

However, even if Based on IQ is fair, I'm not sure being able to base it on one particular skill is. Being able to do effectively any DX-based skill for 4pts a level seems too good. But, Based On can choose Will, which is 5pts per level, and Talents can affect TK, which again can be 5pts per level.

Is a single skill too strong for this? If it's close, is there a skill that would make the most sense and get closest to fair? Are the above things actually fine/fair? Just trying to gauge how things would work. These questions apply to other open-ended abilities, too (Control can be used with many skills, for instance), but TK seemed the biggest trait to be affect by these questions.

Thank you ahead of time.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 07-14-2020, 01:00 PM   #2
Ejidoth
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

Base it on a Very Hard skill? Maybe (low-TL?) Physics, since the character is dealing with gravity, motion, kinetic energy, etc. at a distance; it might require some quick mental calculations to do your telekinesis right.

A VH skill should soak up most of the difference. Consider:

If you just based it on IQ, then you'd get TK DX = IQ for free, and then 5 points per +1 beyond that via a talent.

If you based it on a VH IQ skill, getting to TK DX = IQ costs 8 points, and then 4 points per level beyond that.

For anything short of buying it up to IQ+8, the skill is actually more expensive than going with the pure stat+talent method. At IQ+8, both skill and talent options are equal. After that, the skill starts to be marginally cheaper, but you're probably reaching a point of diminishing returns anyway.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:36 AM   #3
Plane
 
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Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

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Originally Posted by Ejidoth View Post
5 points per +1 beyond that via a talent
Or the 'reliable' enhancement, which can be cheaper at lower levels of TK than a talent, though at high levels a Talent is cheaper.

One idea I had is having reliable purchased on a sliding basis, like where it's super-reliable (+10) at TK 1 and not reliable at all (+0) at TK 10. The idea being the less effort you're putting toward weight (lifting sub-max weight) the more fine control you can use on lighter objects.

I think that averages out to same cost as buying reliable +5 on TK 5 per PU4p17 "declining enhancements" but I'd have to check the math.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:42 AM   #4
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

Since TK can be used as an attack, I am not sure if Reliable is technically legal. After all, it would apply to all skill use through TK, including attacking with a pistol or a sword.
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:04 PM   #5
oneofmanynameless
 
Join Date: May 2012
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Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
However, even if Based on IQ is fair, I'm not sure being able to base it on one particular skill is. Being able to do effectively any DX-based skill for 4pts a level seems too good. But, Based On can choose Will, which is 5pts per level, and Talents can affect TK, which again can be 5pts per level.
I don't think it would let you do effectively any DX-based skill. I think it would replace your DX, allowing you to roll against it for anything that you can normally do with a base DX check (including grab someone or throw a punch.) But it wouldn't give you the benefits of having karate or judo for attacking or defending. But anything that normally requires a skill requires that skill, although it might default to your Based On skill at whatever penalty it would default to DX on. Also, if the GM would normally require a DX check for a complex manipulation (potentially including for the types of things that require high manual dexterity) you can roll against that skill instead.

Idk about basing DX based skills on other skills instead of a attribute. That doesn't seem like how things are supposed to work. =p
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Old 07-17-2020, 02:30 AM   #6
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

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Originally Posted by Ejidoth View Post
For anything short of buying it up to IQ+8, the skill is actually more expensive than going with the pure stat+talent method. At IQ+8, both skill and talent options are equal. After that, the skill starts to be marginally cheaper, but you're probably reaching a point of diminishing returns anyway.
That's a good point, and the skill might not even be that useful in a mundane sense which further balances things.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Since TK can be used as an attack, I am not sure if Reliable is technically legal. After all, it would apply to all skill use through TK, including attacking with a pistol or a sword.
Reliable can only not be taken on ranged attacks because Accurate is effectively a modified Reliable for ranged attacks. Also, Talent is effectively general-use Reliable, so generally speaking it seems if Talent affects it then you can take Reliable. Either way, TK20 and the price is the same.

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Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
I don't think it would let you do effectively any DX-based skill. I think it would replace your DX, allowing you to roll against it for anything that you can normally do with a base DX check (including grab someone or throw a punch.) But it wouldn't give you the benefits of having karate or judo for attacking or defending. But anything that normally requires a skill requires that skill, although it might default to your Based On skill at whatever penalty it would default to DX on. Also, if the GM would normally require a DX check for a complex manipulation (potentially including for the types of things that require high manual dexterity) you can roll against that skill instead.

Idk about basing DX based skills on other skills instead of a attribute. That doesn't seem like how things are supposed to work. =p
Psionic Powers p17 explicitly calls out using skills based on the attribute. And I believe that is the intent with Based On based on what I've seen on these boards, which is the basis of my thoughts.
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Old 07-17-2020, 05:37 AM   #7
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

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Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
I think it would replace your DX
This. TK doesn't grant you all skills at IQ level. It changes the base attribute for using those normally DX-based skills. (TK makes things float, right? Har har.)

I take it one step further, and treat physical skills "TK Broadsword" (etc) as a different skill than regular "Broadsword". Physical skills involve a lot of muscle memory and often pretty specific conditioning. (Not necessarily for general strength or fitness, but just task-specific stuff -- ask a guitar player, for instance, about what they had to do to learn to grip chords or bend strings.) In fairness, TK-based physical skills should require the same sort of mental training and conditioning. You don't have the knowledge of a master swordsman even about tactics and theory just because you're really smart; you have to study your Agrippa. You could learn how to fight with your TK, certainly, but it's not an automatic property of the ability. Otherwise, TK just becomes universal magic just because the player says "I do it with my TK" and threw all his points into superhuman IQ.

Once you've learned your TK fighting skill, that doesn't mean you can do it physically (if for some reason you had to -- and if fiction teaches us anything, it's that powered characters always lose their powers as a plot point somewhere along the line). In a generous mood, I might allow a default because some of the theory would carry over, but you're still missing all that physical training and conditioning, and it would take a significant skill investment in the physical version to get just as good.
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:13 AM   #8
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

Broadsword is Broadsword, whether used by TK or not, as TK allows you to take one standard maneuver per turn as if you possessed a pair of disembodied hands. When it comes to Grappling or Striking, you can use DX to grapple or strike, meaning that Reliable and Talent would be really useful (I would not let either benefit any skill use though). For example, a character with IQ 12 [40], Will 20 [40], PK Talent 4 [20], TK 10 (Based on Will, +20%; Reliable, +10, +50%) [85] would have an effective DX for striking and grappling equal to 34 (and their enemy defend as if against an invisible foe).
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Old 07-17-2020, 01:26 PM   #9
oneofmanynameless
 
Join Date: May 2012
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Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Psionic Powers p17 explicitly calls out using skills based on the attribute. And I believe that is the intent with Based On based on what I've seen on these boards, which is the basis of my thoughts.
Having double checked what it says there I'm sure that what I said in the first place is correct. It does not replace the need for the skill, it replaces the attribute:
E.G.To wield a broadsword with Telekinesis requires a DX based Broadsword check. If you do not have a broadsword skill you can roll on default off of DX at it's usual default of DX-5.
If your TK has Based On IQ it requires an IQ based broadsword check instead, and if you do not have broadsword you can roll on default off of your IQ at the usual relative level for IQ-5.
If your TK has Based on Sex Appeal wielding a broadsword requires a Sex Appeal based Broadsword check (not normally a thing, GMs should decide if they want this to be a thing), and if you do not have broadsword you can roll on default off of your Sex Appeal at the usual relative level for Sex Appeal-5.

EDIT note: If you would like the skill to replace the attribute and any skill when using TK, that would be a totally valid use of a wildcard skill! Based On (TK!) +20%

Personally, I'd have your TK have the -10% Requires Skill Roll (Whichever skill the rune requires) and Based On IQ +20%. Then activating it, and modifying it for stunts, is based on an IQ based check against the skill you want it to require, and IQ replaces DX for using it (but you will still need other skills for things like wielding a sword without the default penalty). Personally as a GM I'd allow that build to use the activation skill in place of IQ/DX for things that can be done with an unmodified DX roll, but not for things that specifically call for DX based skills.

Also, on the topic of Reliable on TK: The modifier isn't available for ranged attacks. TK is a interesting edge case, considering that it contains ranged attacks but is not a ranged attack. It seems like it would be fair to assume that it will benefit any roll to use your TK except attack rolls, where it provides no benefit at all. That said, the scope of TKs "rolls to use" is equivalent to the DX attribute, which is considerably higher than perhaps any other advantage. In light of that a +5%/lvl for what amounts to a nearly full level of DX is sort of a point crock unless you've spent over 300 cp on TK (at which point it's 15 cp which is the equivalent of a limited DX or a "any number of skills" talent.) I'd never build such an advantage as a GM, and if I were to play in a game in which players built their own powers I'd turn down using the Reliable modifier on TK.

Last edited by oneofmanynameless; 07-17-2020 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 07-17-2020, 02:08 PM   #10
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: TK w/Based on Attribute

That would only apply for TK 60+ though. In Supers campaigns with the Super-Effort and Super-Damage modifiers, TK 10 can exceed 700 CP, and adding Reliable +10 only increases the cost by 50 CP. Honestly, Super-Damage is a bit high priced, as I could buy Super-ST 20/110 for 500 CP.
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