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Old 02-17-2020, 09:59 AM   #1
qchap
 
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Default About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

Here I have a question about modifying the Draining disadvantage. I couldn't find anywhere a modifier, which could make the disadvantage drain FP, not HP. Or, especially, I'd like it to drain ER, but it doesn't really matters, I think.

Also, I'd like to have some way to change the amount of draining per day. What if I want it to drain not 2 HP/FP/ER, but only one, or maybe 3.

And finaly, not really so related question, but is there a way to make a character suffer from having low or none ER? Like make a character suffer from some temporary disadvantage, if it's ER is lower then some number (or lower then half of Will score, for example). And make the character to fall unconscious if it's ER is empty.

Any thoughts?
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Old 02-17-2020, 12:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

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Originally Posted by qchap View Post
about modifying the Draining disadvantage
couldn't find anywhere a modifier, which could make the disadvantage drain FP, not HP
It's not on B132, but I imagine you could fudge it by borrowing "Fatigue Only -50%" from Vulnerability (B161)

T212 basically does this for Dependency (B130).

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is there a way to make a character suffer from having low or none ER?
Like make a character suffer from some temporary disadvantage, if it's ER is lower then some number (or lower then half of Will score, for example).
And make the character to fall unconscious if it's ER is empty.
Any thoughts?
It seems like you're trying to get ER to function like FP.

Why wouldn't you just use FP for this?
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

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T212 basically does this for Dependency (B130).
What is T212?

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It seems like you're trying to get ER to function like FP.

Why wouldn't you just use FP for this?
Not like FP. There should be different effects, and on different value (not necessary on 1/3). And otherwise it will differ from FP very much (special recharge only, for example)
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

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What is T212?
Page 212 of GURPS Thaumatology

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Not like FP. There should be different effects, and on different value (not necessary on 1/3). And otherwise it will differ from FP very much (special recharge only, for example)
I'll put a pin in the consciousness issue, but for mobility you might take...

Sessile [-40]
Not Sessile (Costs Fatigue -5%, Can't Draw on FP -5%) [36]

So for -4 points, you would need to pay 1 ER per minute that you didn't want to be rooted to the spot.

"Portable" is -30 (you're not rooted, you can't move but others can move you) and might be a closer fit... That would be [-30] and [27] for a net of -3 points.

One key aspect here though I think is Portable/Sessile doesn't just prevent YOU from moving around, it would also (as a physical disadvantage) limit the mobility of anyone possessing your body. Unconsciousness would not do that, AFAIK.

So we probably do need a separate disadvantage for unconsciouness for designing temporary disadvantage.

I think I can do this... via Power-Ups 8 pg 11.

"Aftermath" (left column) is something that takes effect after you stop using an ability. It's designed around Temporary Disadvantage, but can half-value variant other limitations.

"Backlash" (right column) let's you choose Incapacitation from B36 Affliction modifiers. You use full value if succumbing is automatic.

So if you Aftermath-halve the -200% for Unconsciouness, you get a -100% limitation for Aftermath: Backlash: Unconsciousness.

Aftermath normally requires an ability which will eventually end. This is where we enter house rule territory. Instead of an ability that ends, we need some way of representing "an ER that reaches 0" as an ended-ability.

We do know that if you cripple 1 ability in a power that ALL abilities in a power shut down, so rather than "unconscious at 0 ER" you might have this guy use Extra Effort to make his ER bigger (gain extra ER to keep operating beyond 0 basically) but if he fails an EE roll then his ER shuts down, triggering the unconsciousness.
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Old 02-17-2020, 02:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

Interesting variant about unconsciousness at 0, I'll think over it.

To be more clear: I don't create a single character. It's for a template.

And there one more thing. Exept beeng unconscious at 0, character should have some temporary disadvantage at some low number. E.g. Berserk at 2 or lower.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

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Originally Posted by qchap View Post
Here I have a question about modifying the Draining disadvantage. I couldn't find anywhere a modifier, which could make the disadvantage drain FP, not HP. Or, especially, I'd like it to drain ER, but it doesn't really matters, I think.
First, to make Draining work on FP you could borrow the limitation from Weakness for Fatigue Only. That's -50%. In GURPS Proper substituting FP for an ER is generally a -0% trait. So "ER Only" would be worth -50% on Draining

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Also, I'd like to have some way to change the amount of draining per day. What if I want it to drain not 2 HP/FP/ER, but only one, or maybe 3.
I'd half the base cost for 1 HP/FP/ER and increase it by 50% for 3 points instead of 2.


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And finaly, not really so related question, but is there a way to make a character suffer from having low or none ER? Like make a character suffer from some temporary disadvantage, if it's ER is lower then some number (or lower then half of Will score, for example). And make the character to fall unconscious if it's ER is empty.
Yes. But it's complicated. You'd need to use a mitigator on the disadvantage itself. Then figure out when that disadvantage comes into effect. If you gain the disadvantage at 1/2 ER gone then it's worth -40% as a limitation, if it's at 0 ER gone then it's worth -60%.
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Old 02-18-2020, 02:21 AM   #7
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
First, to make Draining work on FP you could borrow the limitation from Weakness for Fatigue Only. That's -50%. In GURPS Proper substituting FP for an ER is generally a -0% trait. So "ER Only" would be worth -50% on Draining



I'd half the base cost for 1 HP/FP/ER and increase it by 50% for 3 points instead of 2.
Yes, I think it's good solution. Thanks!

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Yes. But it's complicated. You'd need to use a mitigator on the disadvantage itself. Then figure out when that disadvantage comes into effect. If you gain the disadvantage at 1/2 ER gone then it's worth -40% as a limitation, if it's at 0 ER gone then it's worth -60%.
It's interesting and relatively easy to module. But how exactly did you got those numbers? If it's Mitigator (must have ER), it's -60% I suppose. If ER have Special recharge, it becomes -50% (-60%+10% for getting only from special case). It's for disadvantage for having 0 ER. But how you even got -40% for 1/2 ER? I don'r see any possibility for getting -40%. If you just got it intuitively then it looks fine to me. But then what if I want another number? It's better to have some kind of formula or table. And there may be even such special cases as "When ER is less then *some number*-Will/2", for example.
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Old 02-18-2020, 02:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

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Yes, I think it's good solution. Thanks!
No worries.


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It's interesting and relatively easy to module. But how exactly did you got those numbers? If it's Mitigator (must have ER), it's -60% I suppose. If ER have Special recharge, it becomes -50% (-60%+10% for getting only from special case). It's for disadvantage for having 0 ER. But how you even got -40% for 1/2 ER? I don'r see any possibility for getting -40%. If you just got it intuitively then it looks fine to me. But then what if I want another number? It's better to have some kind of formula or table. And there may be even such special cases as "When ER is less then *some number*-Will/2", for example.
I pulled them from my personal rules document. Mostly figured it out by feel and trail and error of over a decade of GMing GURPS 1-3/week. I'd just interpolate other numbers as needed between the two.
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Old 02-18-2020, 02:50 AM   #9
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

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No worries.




I pulled them from my personal rules document. Mostly figured it out by feel and trail and error of over a decade of GMing GURPS 1-3/week. I'd just interpolate other numbers as needed between the two.
Those numbers seem right, I'll try to estimate the others, thanks.
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Old 02-18-2020, 11:02 AM   #10
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Default Re: About Draining disadvantage for fatigue

One possible source of inspiration for "stuff happens when FP is reduced to fraction" would be B109 symptoms. With 2/3 threshold x1, x2 for 1/2 threshold, x3 for 1/3 threshold.

This is priced for Innate Attacks which target someone though, so we'd need to tweak it to instead design some kind of trait which inflicts Symptoms on a person when they fall below those thresholds by ANY means.

Symptoms also normally does not include the Incapacitation category, only Side Effect allows that.

There is "Attribute Penalty" and it occurs to me that reducing IQ to 0 probably causes unconsciousness? You need IQ 1 to be sentient, after all.

Qchap I'm not sure which form of temporary disadvantage you wanted to happen at "half of will score", but I think I see an easy way to do that aspect.

Assuming half of your will score is 5, you could buy 5 points of ER a "switchable" with a temporary disadvantage. Then you could simply not suffer the disadvantage until those ER points are tapped. The non-limited ER would be used first.

Even if your mobility is ER-powered and you ran out of normal ER, you should still be able to take a Ready maneuver to switch on your TD-ER, then continue moving afterward. You'd need 'reduced time' to make doing that a free action, which will offset some of the value you could gain from temporary disadvantages.

On the plus side, I would assume that switched-off ER can't be stolen, so that's nice.

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In GURPS Proper substituting FP for an ER is generally a -0% trait. So "ER Only" would be worth -50% on Draining
It's an extra -5% limitation if a fatigue-costing ability can ONLY draw on ER, but that's for voluntary stuff that you want to use, so you're inconvenienced if you can't also pay FP for it.

A major problem I see with allowing "ER Only" on disadvantages like Dependency/Draining/Vulnerability/Weakness is that there isn't really any kind of problem that occurs at low ER like there is at low FP.

Especially since you can go into negative FP (and start losing HP at that point) which is not a risk with low ER.

So I'd say "drains ER instead of FP" as a Mitigator for a Disadvantage (as opposed to a limitation for an Advantage) should actually be worth far fewer points in most situations.

Only if one is able to limit ER in similar ways to FP (as this thread intends for: penalties at a fraction, unconsciousness at 0) should it be given a similar value.
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