Changing Rapid Fire

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

If thats the reason for the rapid fire RAW, then I'm dumping them right now, because that's garbage. Anything is better than that.

The logic behind them is what sir_pudding posted. They get very good results for small arms combat between SM+2 and SM-2, which is where they'll get used the most.

Futilely unloading a machinegun an aircraft carrier from 20 yards isn't a sufficiently common occurrence to build a system around.

[Tyneras]

Originally Posted by lexington

The logic behind them is what sir_pudding posted. They get very good results for small arms combat between SM+2 and SM-2, which is where they'll get used the most.

Futilely unloading a machinegun an aircraft carrier from 20 yards isn't a sufficiently common occurrence to build a system around.

Note to self: Never, ever use hyperbole.

The rule is still garbage. Not just garbage, repulsive.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

Note to self: Never, ever use hyperbole.

The rule is still garbage. Not just garbage, repulsive.

That looks like hyperbole again. The current rules are simple enough to go quickly and reasonable for the vast bulk of situations that come up in play (To the point that I've never had one it breaks down for in any campaign). It only breaks down in the most extreme of cases. And even if that bothers you, it's easy to patch by saying each MoS actually means you hit with 1/10 of the burst, rounded down, a change that wouldn't alter the results of the vast bulk of combats.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

That looks like hyperbole again. The current rules are simple enough to go quickly and reasonable for the vast bulk of situations that come up in play (To the point that I've never had one it breaks down for in any campaign). It only breaks down in the most extreme of cases. And even if that bothers you, it's easy to patch by saying each MoS actually means you hit with 1/10 of the burst, rounded down, a change that wouldn't alter the results of the vast bulk of combats.

[edit] I found errors in my post, so it is not making any point successfully.
(I forgot the size mod, then proceeded to bump skill to compensate for unexpectedly high base skill.)[/edit]

Really?
Get, say, a BSG Viper. Its cannon has RoF 20/second, or 400 per 20-second round in GSS. It is roughly SM+4. Give it Rcl 1 for the fixed mount, we're feeling generous.
In a training exercise, let it target the BS-F-G, 1½km in length (SM+17).

Both ships are moving at a constant speed, and the absolute distance mod is greater than absolute size mod (1 mile vs 1500yd), so we get speed mods but no dodge.

Under Basic Set rules, that means that while they're both in flight, an unaimed, not electronically aided attack, with base skill 24 (cinematically good), +4 (for RoF 20), -18 for range, total 24+4-18=28-18=10. So it has roughly half chance to hit with one bullet. Let me visualize this for you:

The target is 1500yds wide. The range is 2000yds. The shooter is abnormally skilled. And 19 out of 20 bullets (maybe all 20) will fail to hit this 1500-wide target. 95% of bullets will go 750yds (375 if we include shorter sides) to the side at 2000yds. With a Rcl 1 ('recoilless') weapon.

If you use Spaceships rules, things aren't better in any meaningful sense.

[Sable Wyvern]

Why, exactly, is a Viper firing its cannon at a Battlestar's hull? Targeting a (much smaller) turret I could see as useful, but just firing at the side of the hull is an exercise in futility. This looks like another example where the rapid fire rules are irrelevant, because 1 hit and 200 are both equally useless.

No dice rolls of any kind are required in order for the GM to narrate, "The Viper strafes along the Battlestar, the rounds having no effect on armour designed to withstand direct nuclear strikes."

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Sable Wyvern

Why, exactly, is a Viper firing its cannon at a Battlestar's hull? Targeting a (much smaller) turret I could see as useful, but just firing at the side of the hull is an exercise in futility. This looks like another example where the RoF rules are irrelevant, because 1 hit and 200 are both equally useless.

No dice rolls of any kind are required in order for the GM to narrate, "The Viper strafes along the Battlestar, the rounds having no effect on armour designed to withstand direct nuclear strikes."

Fine, take an X-Wing (or a wing of them...) firing upon a mid-sized Imperial transport to deplete its shields before targeting the engines. Or any of the matchups possible in GURPS Spaceships.

[Celjabba]

What the rule said, if I understand correctly, is that, if you fire a electric gatling at Paris from atop the eiffel tower, only a few bullets will hit the unfortunate man who happened to be at the center of your sight.
If actually hitting that man matter, use the rapid fire rules.
If you are only concerned about hitting the ground, every bullet hit, full stop.
No rules needed.

This is why a Gurps game have a GM :)

Celjabba

[smurf]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Actually, there are specific rules for shooting large targets:



So the 300 yrd Aircraft Carrier gives you +13, the 20 yards away is -6 (Less than twice the bonus from its size). So by RAW if you made your roll by 3 you're hitting with every bullet from almost any gun made right now.

Since you'd be at +7 to hit just from its size I'd say your chances are pretty high.

I like this... as it will be useful for the game of Kobyashi Maru some aliens are playing (they took a different meaning from the film).

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

If you are only concerned about hitting the ground, every bullet hit, full stop.
No rules needed.

This is why a Gurps game have a GM :)

Indeed, good point!

Overall the Rapid Fire rules are aimed primarily at small arms, where they work quite good. But using an abstract concept they make a reasonable compromise between complexity and playability IMHO, and I think it's very, very hard to find a better generic solution, so they made a good job anyway. Of course for very big targets it's not a really good rule but a lof of the upcoming issues can be solved just by background explanations of the GM.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Apache

Gentlemen.

Looks like Snaps wins the thread.

Those rules actually don't apply if the target isn't completely immobile; they only apply to things like hitting the broad side of a barn, or the ground, not a gigantic vehicle, even if the vehicle isn't moving fast enough to affect whether or not it's hit. Further, it's completely against the whole 'RoF is about hitting a point-target' idea.