Using 3e's Tech Levels, or adding more Tech Levels beyond 12.

[LoneWolf23k]

So, planning a sci-fi campaign, basically a Star Trek thing, and I was thinking about the Tech Level. While I do appreciate the simplification of 4e's Tech Level reworking, I feel that ending the rankings at TL12 kinda limits things. Especially when GURPS Ultra-Tech ranks Star Trek as a "Safe-Tech TL12", which implies the Federation is at the limits of its tech evolution, when the setting is full of precursors with "god-like" tech.

[Varyon]

I don't think 4e ever meant to imply TL 12 was the endpoint, the highest TL one could reach... it was just the furthest out the authors opted to speculate to. If you want something that is one or more TL's more advanced than a TL 12 society, feel free to make up TL 13, 14, 15, 76589, etc.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't think 4e ever meant to imply TL 12 was the endpoint, the highest TL one could reach... it was just the furthest out the authors opted to speculate to. If you want something that is one or more TL's more advanced than a TL 12 society, feel free to make up TL 13, 14, 15, 76589, etc.

When I was writing GURPS Future History, I proposed having passages that mentioned the possibility of post-TL12 technologies such as star lifting. Kromm advised me not to introduce high TLs. So it appears that TL13 and up are not canonical, though of course as a GM you can make things up.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't think 4e ever meant to imply TL 12 was the endpoint, the highest TL one could reach... it was just the furthest out the authors opted to speculate to. If you want something that is one or more TL's more advanced than a TL 12 society, feel free to make up TL 13, 14, 15, 76589, etc.

Indeed, this is exactly what GURPS Ultra-Tech advises you to do. TL12 is only the limit for authors, not for GMs.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by LoneWolf23k

Especially when GURPS Ultra-Tech ranks Star Trek as a "Safe-Tech TL12", which implies the Federation is at the limits of its tech evolution, when the setting is full of precursors with "god-like" tech.

On the other hand, Federation starships have [beaten] a fair number of god-like aliens too. Numerical TLs are never particularly meaningful, and particularly so for ahistorical or future TLs where they necesssarily are not grounded in much of anything. Even if you want to use them for something, I really recommend not using numbers at all, just give each technology package a name (TL/modern Federation) (TL/obsolete Federation) etc, and decide the defaults between them yourself. They don't have to all fall on a numerical scale, you can pick defaults between them that don't add up to the same total if you take different paths between them.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by LoneWolf23k

So, planning a sci-fi campaign, basically a Star Trek thing, and I was thinking about the Tech Level. While I do appreciate the simplification of 4e's Tech Level reworking, I feel that ending the rankings at TL12 kinda limits things. Especially when GURPS Ultra-Tech ranks Star Trek as a "Safe-Tech TL12", which implies the Federation is at the limits of its tech evolution, when the setting is full of precursors with "god-like" tech.

If you are running a TL 12 campaign there's no problem with having higher tech levels as a repository for all the superscience you do not want your culture having access to. For example you may not want to let them have time travel, interstellar teleportation, reversal of the aging process, psychotronic technology or even fully sapient IQ 20 AI contained in a crown but you may want the players to encounter it via precursor relics or because of time travellers. The TL 12 limits is strictly for the writers.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by malloyd

On the other hand, Federation starships have [beaten] a fair number of god-like aliens too.

They really haven't. Nor is higher technology a guaranteed win anyway. Someone can be TL 8 and have their handgun right to hand and still lose to a TL2 Roman legion.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

They really haven't.

Vaal. Trelane. Landru. Apollo.... TOS writers liked this plot. One can of course argue about what constitutes a god-like power, but then again you can make the same arguments about the god-like powers that weren't defeated. How do you [know] there isn't an easily destructable power supply or super computer behind them?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Vaal. Trelane. Landru. Apollo.... TOS writers liked this plot. One can of course argue about what constitutes a god-like power, but then again you can make the same arguments about the god-like powers that weren't defeated. How do you [know] there isn't an easily destructable power supply or super computer behind them?

Trelane was "defeated" by his parents showing up to take him home. Apollo was already dying. Landru was a computer no more advanced than anything they had, and Vaal was only slightly more advanced than Landru.

[Stormcrow]

Sigh. Here come the arguments about Star Trek and Tech Level again.

Star Trek Tech Levels are their own thing, not especially relatable in GURPS. Beings like Apollo aren't necessarily more advanced than the Federation; they're just different and mysterious. And vague: we know hardly anything about their kind. There's just no point in looking at a couple of data points and making sweeping generalizations about them. You can arbitrarily decide that the answer is one thing or another, but then there's no point arguing about it on an Internet forum.

When playing Star Trek in GURPS, just make a decision about Tech Levels for each piece of technology separately and never mind getting the "canonical" answer, because there isn't one. Just like "converting" D&D adventures to GURPS, the best strategy is to rebuild the details in GURPS terms from scratch, not try to mathematically transfer the text from one system to the other.