[Basic] Advantage of the Week: Payload

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I wouldn't allow that limitation for -50% for the exact reason you posted. I've allowed it for -40%, with the last -10% being the "does count as encumbrance for traits that don't allow encumbrance". But otherwise I love the idea. Mind, for how limited the end result is I do think 50pts is too much (but then I use Multiplicative Modifiers which brings it to 27pts, or 11pts with my other house rules for high leveled traits and those are probably fine).

Yes, with Multiplicative Modifiers, it is much more reasonable !

Note that I wasn't suggesting using it with warp but with the old "suicide express" when combined with unkillable 3 modified with a respawn point that can be set : set the respawn point to the destination, go pick up the load, die.

Not as practical as warp, especially if you have to travel to the destination first to set up the "save spot", but it can be useful.

[Varyon]

Payload was a crucial component of my Zombie Powered Armor build, although it was utilized for volume rather than weight (something not mentioned in OP - every lb of Payload is assumed to correspond to 0.05 cf of space; in many cases, this is probably safely ignored). One thing that came out of all that was the observation that, with high levels of Payload, it can be more efficient to just increase Lifting ST (particularly if you allow a Limitation for it to only apply to Payload - I marked this as -80%). Heck, with high enough of a Payload, outright increasing ST can be more efficient.

I really like GhostDancer's idea of using a Cosmic Payload to allow for rapidly equipping stored weapons and armor, similar to Erza Scarlet from Fairy Tail.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Payload was a crucial component of my Zombie Powered Armor build, although it was utilized for volume rather than weight (something not mentioned in OP - every lb of Payload is assumed to correspond to 0.05 cf of space; in many cases, this is probably safely ignored). One thing that came out of all that was the observation that, with high levels of Payload, it can be more efficient to just increase Lifting ST (particularly if you allow a Limitation for it to only apply to Payload - I marked this as -80%). Heck, with high enough of a Payload, outright increasing ST can be more efficient.

I really like GhostDancer's idea of using a Cosmic Payload to allow for rapidly equipping stored weapons and armor, similar to Erza Scarlet from Fairy Tail.

Someone had set up once a excel table listing the cheapest combo of payload, ST and lifting ST (depending on the % limitation "only for payload" chosen for lifting ST) but I cannot find the link ...
I may redo it from scratch if there is an interest ?
IIRC, for low level of Payload, the gain was minimal, but it ramped up significantly if you want to store spaceships ...

Otherwise, I have also seen a built with "control gravity 10 (-xx%, only to negate weight for payload)" and used it to build a bag of holding independent from the user own ST, but it was a somewhat silly forum exercise in building gadgets, in a real game, I would just fiat the item.

[ericthered]

This advantage seems to come up in a few different situations for me:

The first is increasing the load of warp, jumper, insubstantial, or invisibilty. I built one character, the (former) death of smallpox, that had all four and bought enough payload to do a "Ghost of Christmas" Impression. Yes, it was really high budget. Most of the time the payload only applies to abilities, not to the actual ability to carry things

The second situation is hammerspace. I can't think of any examples I've actually played with, but it comes up a fair amount as a solution to problems on the forum

The third situation is when balancing technology with advantages. I occasionally use combinations of accessory perks, payload, signature gear, weapon mount, and license perks to come up with a character cost for having a piece of gear permanently part of your body.

The last situation is that I currently have a player whose alien character uses their stomach as a storage container. Its basically normal payload.

[awesomenessofme1]

So here's a thought. While it doesn't count as encumbrance, I think it's reasonable to assume that without modification, Payload does count as weight. As in, if you step on a scale while your Payload is full, it'll give a higher number. I'd also assume that Cosmic, Extradimensional does not increase your weight.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

So here's a thought. While it doesn't count as encumbrance, I think it's reasonable to assume that without modification, Payload does count as weight. As in, if you step on a scale while your Payload is full, it'll give a higher number. I'd also assume that Cosmic, Extradimensional does not increase your weight.

I allow extradimensional to be toggled either way, chosen at character creation.

[Phil Masters]

Actually, Payload sees a lot of use in Transhuman Space cybershell templates, and hence is all over the place in Changing Times and Shell-Tech. Notably, most serious military shells have it, representing internal weapon bays - so I've seen a number of military shells with it in, um, John's Royal Navy TS campaign.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

So here's a thought. While it doesn't count as encumbrance, I think it's reasonable to assume that without modification, Payload does count as weight. As in, if you step on a scale while your Payload is full, it'll give a higher number. I'd also assume that Cosmic, Extradimensional does not increase your weight.

That makes perfect sense to me, yeah. For simplicity, things in Payload not counting toward weight is fine (in some cases, like a spaceship, because weight has been calculated assuming the Payload is full); for realism, naturally weight should count (absent Extradimensional +50% or similar). Fortunately, given character weight is considered a Feature anyway, having filling up your Payload result in increased weight doesn't really cause any game-balance issues (and neither does having it not - deviating from normal is a +0% Modifier).

[Plane]

Further thoughts on the PU2perk mentioned in the OP "Natural Pockets" (PU2p14) which is just a single level of payload.

13 notes "Some of these mundane perks might be “learnable” via exercises, at the GM’s option."

14 notes "Some interpretations have the potential to offend, and the GM is free to forbid them – but people have trained their bodies this way."

This is basically a way to allow Payload (exotic normally forbidden to mundane human chars) with special drawbacks that normally don't apply to it: specifically (or non-specifically) "with
whatever inconveniences the GM deems"

Here the emphasis doesn't seem to be on "free payload that doesn't encumber me" but just the ability to store stuff internally out of sight.

"overlapping fat rolls, a hollow left by surgery, or an unusually flexible body orifice that enables you to conceal"

The thing is... none of those explanations seem like they would cover "I'm stronger at carrying heavy stuff inside me" so one of the prime inconveniences I could see applying to Natural Pockets would be "anything you put inside yourself counts as encumbering".

Other logical realistic things (like say for example you are a sword-swallower) would be "putting a cutting or impaling weapon inside you risks injuring yourself".

Doing something like concealing an unsheathed knife within overlapping fat rolls is probably at least at dangerous as holding an unsheathed knife by the blade instead of the handle.

I haven't really seen that danger fully addressed (ie why Mordau wielders tended to wear chainmail gloves and people don't just casually grappled blades barehanded) anywhere.

Technical Grappling at least took a stab at one asopect by making it easy to do a cutting attack against someone handling your sword by it's blade, but that can't resolve the Mordhau situation (or Ricasso-less half-swording) since nobody's actually wielding the handle yet there is probably a risk of cutting yourself.

In terms of getting at it: if someone uses Detect Concealment (or whatever the skill is called) to locate which fat-roll your dagger/wand is tucked inside, what sort of force is needed to extricate the item?

If you have DR from your fat (probably crushing-only) then it might protect the item while it's in there, but I don't know what dice you would use to pry open the roll of fat and pull the item out.

Like I imagine yo can't just handwaive "he opens the compartment" yet there should be some way to get in, though maybe the skill roll could vary on the nature of the character owning Payload? Like a mechanical/hacking/lockpicking skill for bots like C31R07 or maybe some kind of medical skill for a human's fat rolls?

Or maybe we just assume deposit/retrieval is automatic success unless characters have some sort of "my Payloads have Locks" type of perk or enhancement?

Originally Posted by johndallman

You need to chose the division between cargo and passengers when you buy the advantage

I always wondered about this part.
Like what do we do for NPCs like B309's C31R07 where it isn't defined?
He's got ST 28 (basic lift 156.8) so Payload 5 is 78.4 internal storage and Payload 14 is 219.52 external storage.

So does that mean he's got one seat/saddle outside for a large char like Janos (197lbs) or two seats for a pair of tiny ones like Dai (115lbs) and Xing (100lbs) ? Or what would even prevent Dai+Xing squeezing into a single large-sized spot meant for Janos together?

In terms of internal compartments, if you have a single large compartment that can store 75 pounds what would stop you from storing three 25-pound items in it?

What would be the advantage to defining three 25-pound compartments instead?

I can think of some realistic reasons like "to prevent objects touching each other" or "so I can open one compartment to reveal it's contents without revealing contents in different compartments" or "if someone manages to locate/hack one compartment they don't get all the contents, they'll need to search/hack separately for my other compartments".

In terms of crunch though I don't know of any rules to distinguish between these things. Maybe require separate Holdout rolls to locate each compartment and there is a bonus to locate compartments equal to the levels of Payload?

What about breaking into them though? How do we deal with stuff like hatches and needing to inflict damage or learn an entry code to get into a character's compartment?

I don't know if DR alone would cover that since it might in theory be easier to open/hack certain hatches but not damage the machine as a whole.

Originally Posted by johndallman

Powers makes some important additions: buying Cosmic, +50% on your Payload allows you to stow things in another dimension. They still have to fit within the weight limit, but can’t be found by normal means. Switchable Payload allows you to create new body cavities, and transforming robots can carry their Payload through a switch of form safely.

C31R07 doesn't have the Switchable enhancement on his, does that mean it will cause some problems when he uses his Shapeshifting: Alternate Form advantage?

Originally Posted by johndallman

Payload isn’t very widely used in GURPS supplements. Adaptions gives us a modifier for it, Based on HP instead of ST (+0%), intended for balloons, large rafts, mobile homes and other movable structures with no ST

I could also see using "Based on Will" or "Based on TK" if you had that cosmic "store in another dimensions" enhancement. Especially since Payload increases what you can carry using Warp and you can get modifiers like that to shift your Warp capacity away from ST in that fashion.

Originally Posted by johndallman

The only character I’ve played with Payload has one level, with Cosmic (Only findable with Cosmic search abilities, +50%), No Signature (Material World, +20%), and No Signature (Spirit World, +20%)

If you had both kinds of No Signature then I'm not sure I understand what the Cosmic does... if you only had doubled-up No-Sig (isn't that actually +25% each as of Powers?) then would it still be possible for Cosmic Detect to locate undetectable stuff so the extra +50 atop the two 20s/25s is to stop Cosmic Detect?

One cool idea for something like this might be to give it a gadget limitation in which case then you could consider it a "magic hat" or a "bag of holding".

I could see in a situation like that, instead of basing it on the ST of the wearer you might instead base it on the HP of the item. That could potentially get out of hand though, like "I have an HP 1000 gadget" but then I think the "doesn't encumber" benefit wouldn't apply (ie a 2000lb horse with a 500lb external payload still counts as 2500 lbs of encumbrance to the T-Rex the horse is riding)

Maybe a better way to do that would be to define objects w/ payloads as an Ally which tends to be what's done for vehicles. That way you pay for the HP or ST the Payload is based on.

If you were to tie a gadget Payload to it's wearer then that definitely seems like a good reason to use Will-based because of some mental connection, and you would need to be touching the gadget to actually keep the payload stored, otherwise it would turn off and then the payload would be expelled.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

The thing is... none of those explanations seem like they would cover "I'm stronger at carrying heavy stuff inside me" so one of the prime inconveniences I could see applying to Natural Pockets would be "anything you put inside yourself counts as encumbering".

I mean, if you track ingested food and water as encumbrance until it's left the body (as exhaled CO2/H2O, sweat, feces, and/or urine), sure. I'm pretty certain most tables don't do that, however. There's also justification for treating something carried internally as just part of one's body rather than as separate weight, because realistically it is easier to carry, say, water in your stomach than in a CamelBak (at least so long as you didn't drink too much, but that's a different problem).

Originally Posted by Plane

I haven't really seen that danger fully addressed (ie why Mordau wielders tended to wear chainmail gloves and people don't just casually grappled blades barehanded) anywhere.

It's an edge case, but simply applying the Hurting Yourself rules (with cutting rather than crushing damage) on such attacks is an option. Do note one can handle most blades this way barehanded, it's just riskier (so some protective gloves are good, in case the blade slips). Things change if the blade is razor-sharp, of course, but most combat weapons aren't (because that would also make the edge quite brittle).

Originally Posted by Plane

Like I imagine yo can't just handwaive "he opens the compartment" yet there should be some way to get in, though maybe the skill roll could vary on the nature of the character owning Payload? Like a mechanical/hacking/lockpicking skill for bots like C31R07 or maybe some kind of medical skill for a human's fat rolls?

Handwaving is typically going to be fine. If the compartment is likely to be locked, sealed, or simply covered by something very heavy, you could call for a roll (or at least, in the last case, determine if the seacher's BL is sufficient to shift the fat roll or whatever), but typically I'd say it's no more difficult than reaching into an actual pocket and pulling something out.

Originally Posted by Plane

C31R07 doesn't have the Switchable enhancement on his, does that mean it will cause some problems when he uses his Shapeshifting: Alternate Form advantage?

The "Switchable" and "Alternate Forms" comments are unrelated. Switchable means you can create new compartments (and remove old ones). Having an Alternate Form means your compartment(s) shift in a safe manner when you transform, such that the contents aren't squished (unless your alternate form doesn't have a Payload, or has a smaller one). You don't need Switchable for your Alternate Form to have this benefit - it's just there so you don't have to empty your Payload before shifting.