Multiple hits from one targeted attack.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

most following shots from a burst go up, as recoil tends to pull up the firearm's muzzle.

So you could have the first round (or whatever round the GM chooses) hit the desired locale -- then move the every following round "up" a certain amount depending on the range. I suppose you could be fairly arbitrary, as I'm not sure that there is any reliable information on this issue. So if the first hit is in the elbow, No. 2 is in the upper arm, 3 in the shoulder, the rest miss (on a standing person.)

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

most following shots from a burst go up, as recoil tends to pull up the firearm's muzzle.

So you could have the first round (or whatever round the GM chooses) hit the desired locale -- then move the every following round "up" a certain amount depending on the range. I suppose you could be fairly arbitrary, as I'm not sure that there is any reliable information on this issue. So if the first hit is in the elbow, No. 2 is in the upper arm, 3 in the shoulder, the rest miss (on a standing person.)

Only for traditional firearms with a top slide. Even weirdo modern and ancient firearms challenged this (side breech and feed parachute carbines, the kriss rifle, gyrojets, man portable gatling guns, over/under stacked multi barrel machine guns, etc).

I would think that even further specialized charts and tables from the more generic example of using the hit location as recoil would just add complexity without achieving satisfactory return on the complexity increase.

[Celjabba]

There was a modern setting rpg, the name escape me right now, with dispersion transparents to layer on various target silhouette. Pick the silhouette with the right profile, select the transparent matching your weapon stats and range, center the transparent on the spot you were aiming, align it along the recoil axis, and various numbered area would get you the hits according to the dice roll. Too complex for my taste, but may be worth looking for ?

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by starslayer

Only for traditional firearms with a top slide. Even weirdo modern and ancient firearms challenged this (side breech and feed parachute carbines, the kriss rifle, gyrojets, man portable farming guns, over/under stacked multi barrel machine guns, etc).

It isn't the slide, or at least not primarily the slide. The axis of recoil in many firearms is above the point of contact with the hand/shoulder.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

There was a modern setting rpg, the name escape me right now, with dispersion transparents to layer on various target silhouette. Pick the silhouette with the right profile, select the transparent matching your weapon stats and range, center the transparent on the spot you were aiming, align it along the recoil axis, and various numbered area would get you the hits according to the dice roll. Too complex for my taste, but may be worth looking for ?

Pretty sure that was Millennium's End. I always liked that. It was a good idea, and in practice, pretty easy to understand and use, but it requires "physical props" to use—including possibly needing to make new silhouettes for it for weird situations.

I think the first-shot-plus-area-fire is probably the best model, if there were a way to make that work without extra rolling—although one extra roll is still better than the 3e mechanic of splitting up autofire into 3-round groups and attacking with them separately. We kinda need some sort of "scalable" random hit-location system, that can be restricted to just the most sensible area of effect. If it existed, it would be applicable to more than just firearms (punching to a random upper-body location being an example).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by mushroom911

One thing that I have always found hard to justify is that if you, say, use target vitals with a machine gun and score 3-4 hits, they all hit vitals.
Is there no optional rule set so that they could possibly land in both torso/vitals or something like that?

Another example, you use a submachinegun to target the arm at -2, you score 5 hits and they all hit the arm. At 5yds this makes sense, at 30yds it doesn't. So how do I go about this?

Ed: I am aware of the tactical shooting thing on Mozambique drills (Quick shot technique)

You accept a -3 penalty for targeting the Vitals, just like you accept a -3 penalty for targeting an enemy at about three times the distance away, or an enemy that is smaller. If the character is so skilled as to be able to put 3-4 hits onto an enemy at thrice the distance, then the character also happens to be skilled enough to place as many shots into the vital area of the same enemy at normal distance. This is a consequence of the fact that in GURPS, a -3 modifier is a -3 modifier, and a -3 worth of target difficulty is interchangeable. (Now, what happens to the fifth or fourth shot is an interesting question, and can be covered by the 'vitals missed by one result in torso hits', as mentioned upthread.)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If the character is so skilled as to be able to put 3-4 hits onto an enemy at thrice the distance, then the character also happens to be skilled enough to place as many shots into the vital area of the same enemy at normal distance. This is a consequence of the fact that in GURPS, a -3 modifier is a -3 modifier, and a -3 worth of target difficulty is interchangeable.

Not really no. You ought not to be able to put rounds into targets smaller than the burst pattern of the weapon. In GURPS hitting a guy 150 yards away with the pellets of a shotshell is the same as hitting a guy's eyeball with the same shell at 10 yards even though the eye is probably smaller than the spread at that point.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Not really no. You ought not to be able to put rounds into targets smaller than the burst pattern of the weapon. In GURPS hitting a guy 150 yards away with the pellets of a shotshell is the same as hitting a guy's eyeball with the same shell at 10 yards even though the eye is probably smaller than the spread at that point.

Well, I don't like the way Recoil works in 4e. 3e was fiddly, but 4e is too simplified, and the result of this oversimplification is the numbers look off the further one gets away from . . . I think it's human-sized CQB, but I don't think I ever fired a full-auto weapon IRL, so I don't know for sure.

The point is that if one accepts static Rcl numbers for shooting far-away targets, one is bound by consistency to accept them for shooting eyes and vitals. And if one rejects the static numbers for eyes and vitals, one should logically also reject them for targeting far-away soldiers, spaceship engagements and so on.

Alas, GURPS doesn't have a realistic-and-fast/easy/playable way of handling burst pattern sizes.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Alas, GURPS doesn't have a realistic-and-fast/easy/playable way of handling burst pattern sizes.

I wouldn't have a problem with having one of each that you can choose from based on the group/situation. We need Technical Autofire :P

[Gigermann]

So what do you (all) think would be the most technically correct handling of auto-fire and hit location, if playability was not a factor? Here's what I'm thinking (without serious reality-checking, at the moment):

1. Treat the first shot normally
2. Determine the area of the cone-of-fire on the target at range, accounting for weapon movement, inherent accuracy, etc.
3. Use some sort of "grenade scatter" mechanic to place remaining shots within the cone
4. Apply #3 to an appropriately-scaled hex-grid overlaid over a target silhouette—could be a physical overlay, like Millennium's End, or just "assumed" (for example, could just have a humanoid silhouette with a hex-grid, and work it outward from the targeted hex)