Warhammer 40K Lite?

[Morlock]

Originally Posted by ericthered

If you're toning them down anyways [snipped.

I will look at your recommends, thanks.

[Morlock]

Originally Posted by Rolando

you will be better using Ultra Tech and hand picking each piece of equipment to recreate the available tech toys, then making all the background tech as just that, background decor and atmosphere.

I think I share your feelings for 40K, I like some of it but really dislike the over the top, childish uber everything. Is like hearing to children on too many candies trying to top each other, one say his soldiers are big and nasty, then the other says his soldiers are nastier, and bigger with spikes, etc, etc, etc.

LOL. I think one way to flatten the power scale of 40k AND stay cannon is to treat a lot of the lore as propaganda. The difference between what I want to do and the lore is too big for this to work in my case, but that is what I would do if I wanted to keep close to the lore but tone things down. "Sure, the Emperor SAYS they're invincible supermen - what else would he say? But if that's true, why don't the Orks always lose?"

[Varyon]

Bio Tech has some "supersoldier" genetic templates that could serve as the basis for your toned-down Space Marines. I think they also get a lot of postnatal enhancements bolted on as they mature (much like the Spartan II's from Halo), so you could have some fun looking at everything that could be done with that book at, say, TL 10. It might even be interesting to take the Deathworlders approach and not give them actual power armor - rather, all those strength enhancements (which the HEAT in Deathworlders manage by the expedient of having regenerative superdrugs, allowing them to do a torturous cycle of exercise and regenerate to build up some ridiculous strength) are in part to allow them to handle the extreme weight of an unpowered, heavily-armored spacesuit. Maybe a typical Space Marine is something like SM+1 and ST 30... and with their armor not giving them a further +30 or whatever to ST, you can also tone down their opponents to be things a typical guardsman could take out with good tactics. This is somewhat like the approach I opted for when musing over designing a Starcraft campaign - having typical marines simply be strong dudes in armored spacesuits rather than ubermensch in powered armor meant things like Protoss Zealots, Zerglings, Hydralisks, etc could similarly be toned down to a level where a farmer with a shotgun isn't as screwed as, well, the farmer with a shotgun in the first episode of Dragonball Z. Of course, that's a much lower power level than what I suggested above, which is basically ubermensch in armored spacesuits.

You will want to be careful, of course. If you advertise "a Warhammer 40k campaign" to players, they may well expect to be able to play as the canonical over-the-top Space Marines, even if you tell them you're toning it down. This is one reason why the idea of "Create, don't adapt" can be rather useful - having a campaign that's simply inspired by some IP reduces the preconceived notions your players are going to have going into it, although it does mean you can't draw as readily upon preexisting lore.

[a humble lich]

I like this idea. I agree that the 40k setting has some good ideas, but can be way too over the top. And I send the idea of saying that most of the writings on it are best considered to be imperial propaganda. Really, I see there are some many different versions of the 40k setting. It has changed significantly over time. There is the setting from the tabletop game, the setting described in the various RPGs, and the setting described in the books, and none of these really line up with the others. And on the tabletop at least, space marines are not that much stronger than every one else.

As far an ideas on where to take it, I see 4 things you need. First, look at GURPS Lite and see what skills/advantages need to be added. Second, think about how to treat psykers. I might recommend GURPS Psionic Powers, but that is getting away from the philosophy of keeping it light. The psi powers from Monster Hunters might also be a possibility. Or just avoid psykers. This, make some templates for things like Eldar, Space Marines, etc. Again, many of these could be left out if you don't think your game will include those things.

Finally, and most importantly, think about technology. If I were looking at a lower powered 40k setting, I would make it about TL 6+2. Most weapons, vehicles, etc are basically like WWII versions, just spacey. Then look at TL6/TL7 weapons and armor and make up stats for the 40k version.

For example, I might say:

Flak Armor--DR 15
Power Armor--DR 25, ST +5
Autogun -- Same as M16
Las Gun -- Same as a M1, but increase the ammo to 60 shots and make the damage burn
Hell Gun -- Same as a lasgun, but uses ammo 10 times as fat, get +2 dmg and an armor division of 2
Bolter -- Something like 8d damage, linked 1d+2 [1d] cr ex

These stats are much lower power than what something from Ultra Tech would give you, but that isn't really a bad thing. This is a setting where hitting people with your sword is viable and some of the scariest creatures go after you with claws.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by a humble lich

There is the setting from the tabletop game, the setting described in the various RPGs, and the setting described in the books, and none of these really line up with the others.

Yes, you'll get a vastly different impression depending on the source or even edition you use.

Finally, and most importantly, think about technology. If I were looking at a lower powered 40k setting, I would make it about TL 6+2. Most weapons, vehicles, etc are basically like WWII versions, just spacey. Then look at TL6/TL7 weapons and armor and make up stats for the 40k version.

Baseline imperial humans are represented pretty well with TL6ish (WW1/2) stats. Space Marines might get slightly better gear (TL7ish stats), but mostly they are bigger, tougher guys using better armor and bigger guns.

I suspect you're overestimating the usefulness of Flak (which is next to no armor most of the time) vs Power Armor (actually effective), but this looks like a good start.

This is a setting where hitting people with your sword is viable and some of the scariest creatures go after you with claws.

That fits my view. War isn't feel as gritty when you can snipe or drone strike from long range.

[Rolando]

If you use the miniatures rules as statistic probability of usefulness of equipment, flack protect from most common attacks 1/3th of the time while power armor do it 2/3th of the time. And considering flack armor don't cover much of the body it is reasonable to assume most of the failed armor saves from flack protected models is because they are hit in places they don't have any armor, meanwhile when powered armored models fail an armor save is because it was hit in a vulnerable place (if hit by a hand held weapons like a lasgun or boltgun).

So flack armor is not necessarily that thin, it just doesn't cover much of the body. Even the common helmets protect only the head, not the face nor the neck.

So, flack may be actually 20 or 35 DR, like current assault vests with ceramic plates, and power armor may be around 35 to 40 DR. Give weapons regular damage (2 to 6 dice) but good armor divisors and you will be in a good place.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rolando

If you use the miniatures rules as statistic probability of usefulness of equipment, flack protect from most common attacks 1/3th of the time while power armor do it 2/3th of the time.

That's not quite accurate. On paper, flak may have a 1/3 chance, but in practice many (if not most) attacks have either an AP or armor modifiers.

Other than Catachan jungle fighters my IG troops are all covered head to toe (though what's clothing vs armor is questionable) while any Space Marine with rank seems to have long lost his helmet.

[Rolando]

Originally Posted by naloth

That's not quite accurate. On paper, flak may have a 1/3 chance, but in practice many (if not most) attacks have either an AP or armor modifiers.

Other than Catachan jungle fighters my IG troops are all covered head to toe (though what's clothing vs armor is questionable) while any Space Marine with rank seems to have long lost his helmet.

most common weapons don't, only ap weapons that while common in a wargaming table are quite uncommon in the fluff of the game.

treat flack as 20 to 35 and make meltas, bolters, etc have high armor divisor and you will be in the right place...meltas, for example should be armor divisor of at least 10. Bolters are described as shaped charge mini missiles, so they will probably be 10 divisor too, but much less damage, like a gyroc round from ultra tech.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rolando

most common weapons don't, only ap weapons that while common in a wargaming table are quite uncommon in the fluff of the game.

treat flack as 20 to 35 and make meltas, bolters, etc have high armor divisor and you will be in the right place...meltas, for example should be armor divisor of at least 10. Bolters are described as shaped charge mini missiles, so they will probably be 10 divisor too, but much less damage, like a gyroc round from ultra tech.

While I have no problem with that approach, even Antique Pistols dating back to Rogue Trader had a -1 modifier as did Autoguns and Autopistols. It's more of an anomaly to find ranged weapons that don't have a modifier of some kind in the current edition of any version of the table top game (including Kill Team and Necromunda). HtH tends to be a bit of a different beast because of how many attacks you get.