Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Archer)

[Kalzazz]

Well could just drop it to 10 or 15 or whatever feels good

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Boge

What suggestions would you have just for a reduced price for Weapon Master Bow vs other melee weapons? If Weapon Master Sword is 20 points, my group feels Bow doesn't benefit as much, so what cost should Weapon Master Bow be if it's reduced?

For my Limit Breakers, I felt TbaM was worth roughly [10] for unlocking access to the various cinematic/esoteric Skills/Techniques/Advantages, and roughly [10] each for reduced Rapid Strike penalties and reduced Parry penalties. Full-blown Weapon Master (All Muscle-Powered Weapons) [45] would presumably be similarly [10] for unlocking access, [10] for reduced Rapid Strike penalties, [10] for Reduced Parry penalties, with the remaining [15] covering the damage boost* and the various miscellaneous effects (like improved defaults). [10] out of [45] reduces down to [4.44] out of [20], so [15] or [16] seems roughly fair for a single-weapon variant that doesn't grant reduced Parry iteration penalties.

*Assuming "Armed Only" is around -10% or so, [15] worth of Striking ST with that Limitation would buy you a little over 3 levels, which at typical human combatant ST levels is around +1.5 damage to thr, +3 damage to sw.

EDIT: I could see a case made for TbaM being roughly [15] for reduced Rapid Strike penalties and [15] for reduced Parry iteration penalties, with its ability to serve as a prerequisite being a freebie. In that case, full-blown Weapon Master would have the same [15] cost for those two aspects. [15] out of [45] reduces down to [6.67] out of [20], so [13] or [14] for the single-weapon variant that doesn't grant reduced Parry iteration penalties would work. I'd probably round that up to [15] (just as above I'd probably round down to [15]).

[Boge]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

In the past I allowed those with Weapon Master bow to add their Bow skill level to ST to determine the best draw strength they could use. So if you had Bow at DX+5, then you'd add +5 to your ST to determine the highest ST bow you could use. It subsumed Strongbow completely.

Did you do this along with the damage change?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Boge

Did you do this along with the damage change?

If they also had Heroic Archer, yes. But for a highly cinematic campaign.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by Boge

I'm still not quite understanding. Can you give me some comparison examples, say someone with Broadsword skill at 16 (DX+3) vs Bow at 18 (DX+5)? And how would it change with higher or lower skills? Sorry...I'm feeling stupid right now.

A character with <swung_weapon_skill> at DX+2 and weapon master currently does 1d+2 at ST 10, 2d+4 at ST 14, 3d+6 at ST 17, etc. The bonus adds are twice the base dice.

Under Chris' system the same character would do 1d+2, 2d+2, and 3d+2. The bonus is and always shall be 2.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

A character with <swung_weapon_skill> at DX+2 and weapon master currently does 1d+2 at ST 10, 2d+4 at ST 14, 3d+6 at ST 17, etc. The bonus adds are twice the base dice.

Under Chris' system the same character would do 1d+2, 2d+2, and 3d+2. The bonus is and always shall be 2.

Actually, Chris was giving +4 at DX+2, so the sequence is 1d+4, 2d+4, 3d+4, etc. For swing damage Chris' rule becomes worse than the RAW at ST17+ for swing damage, and ST27+ for thrust damage.

It also makes weapon masters using thrust/impaling weapons really, really scary.

[Gnome]

In my DF games, I find that the utility of a bow more than makes up for its drawbacks. The ability to hit enemies at range, especially when you get into insanely high skill levels where range penalties aren't that significant, is just dominating. If you encounter an enemy that's 50 yards away, you can start shooting and get many attacks in before they close to melee distance. If the enemies fly, you might be the only one that can attack them. And so on...

I've found that in many of the battles I planned as GM, I specifically had to think about how to prevent the Scout from just winning the battle outright before anyone else got a chance to act (this is a high-level Scout with skill 30+, ST 20+ and multiple Extra Attacks). Eg. the group is attacked by a flock of wyverns, but as they fly over the rise of the mountaintops the Scout starts shooting--by the time they close to the distance they need to get to start grabbing PCs and dropping them over cliffs or whatever, they all have arrows in their eyes. Eventually important NPCs start wearing Missile Shield spells, learning Parry Missile Weapons, hiding in magical Darkness, etc.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I've found that in many of the battles I planned as GM, I specifically had to think about how to prevent the Scout from just winning the battle outright before anyone else got a chance to act (this is a high-level Scout with skill 30+, ST 20+ and multiple Extra Attacks). Eg. the group is attacked by a flock of wyverns, but as they fly over the rise of the mountaintops the Scout starts shooting--by the time they close to the distance they need to get to start grabbing PCs and dropping them over cliffs or whatever, they all have arrows in their eyes. Eventually important NPCs start wearing Missile Shield spells, learning Parry Missile Weapons, hiding in magical Darkness, etc.

And no dungeon corridor ever has a straight run longer than one turn's move for the primary inhabitants...

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Rupert

And no dungeon corridor ever has a straight run longer than one turn's move for the primary inhabitants...

Yes, that is one of the many artificial workarounds that GMs in DF must employ in order to defang the Scout!

[Boge]

I wrote up a big comparison chart yesterday and I really like his change to Weapon Master bonus damage. I pitched it to our GM. Hopefully he'll go for it. I'm thinking maybe a +1 damage per skill +1 DX up to a max of 4. Weapon Master is about skill, not strength. So the more skilled you are, the more you'd be able to wield a weapon for maximum output.

I think it would also keep unskilled characters with Weapon Master All in check. A character that never picked up an axe shouldn't be able to hit someone for an extra 4 damage in my opinion.