Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-21-2021, 07:13 PM   #101
Emerikol
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

I agree that GURPS is pretty easy for a player except for character generation. For new players I'm all for templates with choices. Not fixed templates. Templates with choices.

I think being a GM though could be really tough. So more ready to go, everything you need, campaign books would be good. Not saying I need it because world creating is my other hobby. Okay roleplaying is my other hobby to be honest. Most people though don't have the same devotion to worldbuilding I do out of the gate.

A campaign book would have the following
1. A decent description of a setting
2. Character/Racial Templates sufficient to get a group started fast.
3. Any/All systems defined and make different campaigns use different systems.
4. A really decent take on NPCs and "monsters/creatures" etc.. where appropriate.
4. Some sort of adventure path with anywhere from 5 to 10 adventures that could represent an entire campaign in theory set in that campaign book. These adventures could be additional pdf add-ons.

When making these campaign books be creative and inventive. Really lean into what makes GURPS a great system. Do things other rpgs can't do. Now the Infinite Earths setting is pretty awesome and with only a minor bit of tweaking could suffice as one example. We need more though.
Emerikol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2021, 07:20 PM   #102
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
Only if someone generates a character for you.
You've just demonstrated Tuk's point. If you go around introducing GURPS by saying, "It's easy, but only if someone generates a character for you," you have failed to recruit players.

And frankly, that's pretty much wrong anyway. You don't HAVE to have umpteen advantages and techniques and customized spell systems and so on and so forth.

Tell someone to pick and pay for ST, DX, IQ, and HT.
Tell them to describe what skills the character has. You will tell them what skills to write down and how much to pay for them.
Give them the equipment list FROM THE BASIC SET ONLY, tell them how much money they have, tell them their TL limit, and let them buy what they want.
DONE!

"What about advantages? What about disadvantages? What about secondary characteristics? What about powers and psionics and magic?" Don't need 'em. Add that stuff later, when the players get the hang of the system and WANT to try something new.

"But you need disadvantages or you'll be playing a cardboard cutout!" Nonsense. Players can give personality to their characters without being forced to by disadvantages. If a player insists on playing someone with an obvious, points-sucking disadvantage, suggest it. Otherwise don't worry about it for now.

"But you bought the skills for them! So you made the character!" Yeah, whatever. They chose the attributes. They bought the equipment. They described what they're good at. They're invested in the character now, as if they had made it themselves.

Quote:
because seeing what happens when someone hits someone in GURPS is often an involved procedure. It may involve blocks, dodges. margin of success, hit location, damage type, split armour type, hardened armour, DR reduction, a damage roll, flexible armour, hit location and damage type again, major wounds, crippling wounds, mortal wounds, shock, stunning, knockdown, knockback, having 1/3 or fewer of your hit points left, rolling to avoid unconsciousness, and rolling death checks.
Why on earth are you using all those options for newbies?! Play something simpler to start with!
Stormcrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2021, 07:31 PM   #103
Emerikol
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Why on earth are you using all those options for newbies?! Play something simpler to start with!
I would agree with Storm that keeping it simple for newbies is important.

But what sort of newbie are they? New to GURPS or new to Roleplaying. The answer matters a lot. If they are new to roleplaying then do what Storm says and keep it super simple.

If they are new to GURPS but a veteran roleplayer (a not uncommon event I'm guessing) then I think it would be better to meet each player alone before the big game and build a character together. Have them describe what they want and you help them pick things. Use a template if that helps but varying the template is fine. When dealing with an experienced roleplayer you want to show that roleplayer the advantages of GURPS (forgive the pun).

Also forgive me if I say that I will in many cases tend to use the simpler choice when running GURPS combat. I don't plan on using hit locations at all. I do want to use some of the manuevers and close combat stuff so I will. I may give them a special called shots rule where they can take -10 and avoid all armor if they hit. This would represent aiming for a weak point.

Also for wealth, status, reputation, just start them out at some baseline the first time. If THEY bring it up then by all means give them the option but otherwise get the game going.

Also, I plan on giving them a specific list of skills, traits, etc... for the specific campaign. They don't need to be pouring though tons of non-applicable stuff to find what they want. Give them a limited campaign specific list.
Emerikol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2021, 08:09 PM   #104
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerikol View Post
I would agree with Storm that keeping it simple for newbies is important.

But what sort of newbie are they?
If GURPS is going to thrive they need to include newbie GMs.

Quote:
If they are new to GURPS but a veteran roleplayer (a not uncommon event I'm guessing) then I think it would be better to meet each player alone before the big game and build a character together. Have them describe what they want and you help them pick things.

<snip>

Also forgive me if I say that I will in many cases tend to use the simpler choice when running GURPS combat.

<snip>

Also for wealth, status, reputation, just start them out at some baseline the first time.

<snip>

Also, I plan on giving them a specific list of skills, traits, etc... for the specific campaign.

<snip>

They don't need to be pouring though tons of non-applicable stuff to find what they want.
Don't you see what you are saying? Use this bit. Don't use that bit. Make a careful choice among these and those things from over there that go with them. If the customers want this stuff be sure not to let them self-serve. Don't let the kiddies play with those.

You are describing the use of a complex system.
__________________

Decay is inherent in all composite things.
Nod head. Get treat.

Last edited by Agemegos; 06-21-2021 at 08:25 PM.
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 05:15 AM   #105
Emerikol
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
If GURPS is going to thrive they need to include newbie GMs.
Do better than they are now? Yes. To grow to compete with the big boy on the block? Absolutely. Continue to operate and make a profit? No.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
Don't you see what you are saying? Use this bit. Don't use that bit. Make a careful choice among these and those things from over there that go with them. If the customers want this stuff be sure not to let them self-serve. Don't let the kiddies play with those.

You are describing the use of a complex system.
You do this when starting with almost any roleplaying game and not just GURPS. GURPS great strength is also a barrier to entry for totally new players and especially totally new GMs. Leaving out complexity though is easier in GURPS than in ANY other game. Playing a highly simplified combat system is not that hard and I recommend it on day one.

I also think that for a total newbie I'd recommend NOT looking up rules during the session. Wing it. If you don't know just set a number and roll and provide a reasonable explanation. Make a note of what was tried and after the session was over go look up the rule and add it to your GM notes/screen. What players do is not everything in the book. Looking up rules all day is a great way for a game to fail.

I'm starting GURPS myself. I consider the core system easy but the options within that system are fairly complex depending on what you include. So when I start my campaign if it ain't on the GMs screen I will make an executive decision. I have read the books through probably twice now anyway and still miss stuff. I'm going to start on fantasy so I'm not going to dwell on the modern weapons rules for pistols.
Emerikol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2021, 04:52 PM   #106
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
You've just demonstrated Tuk's point.
If I were addressing people unfamiliar with GURPS, and trying to persuade them to take up GURPS, you would have a point. In the actual circumstances I demonstrated something else: that the policy Tuk put forward involves telling an untruth that would be very quickly exposed.
__________________

Decay is inherent in all composite things.
Nod head. Get treat.

Last edited by Agemegos; 06-22-2021 at 04:59 PM.
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 10:32 AM   #107
AlexAB
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default On Simulations

I haven't bought the product in question; but I wanted to comment on the issue about simulation. It is true that GURPS might not be a real world simulation (that would depend on what kind of campaign you run); but it is most definitely a simulation!

Yes, I get that GURPS uses abstractions rather than complex physical rules. But that is a given; any simulation will use abstractions. If something could not use abstractions, it would be reality, not a simulation. It is also true that GURPS is a game, an RPG to be more specific. But that doesn't keep it from also being a simulatio; in fact, a game that uses simulations in its rules. Some RPGs do away completely with simulations; the rules don't try to account for what is going on in the gameworld, or do so only secondarily; but rather care about the flow of the story or abstract attributes of the characters or some such aspect. I think those became more popular after the 2000s, with games influenced by the Forge website and whatnot.

Anyway, my point is that GURPS is most definitely a simulation of some sort; its rules are written like that. In fact, in the past it seemed to embrace this idea with both gusto and dedication. The old GURPS Vehicles is a great example of this, of course. But there are many others. The GURPS combat system accounting for each combat second by second, blow by blow shows that this was present from the beginning. The way GURPS dealt with firearms, taking into account the penetrative power of rounds to determine their damage is another good example of this tradition. In fact, it is a particularly good one, I think! By grounding damage on something definite like this, GURPS makes its "damage" abstraction something concrete; something much less arbitrary; which in turn allows the GM to adjudicate things based on it more easily. Of course most GMs aren't going to need or want exact calculations of how much damage something the PCs throw does based on speed and mass. But having a good and clear basis of how this is accounted for can help, especially when it matters.

Of course, GURPS is far from a perfect simulation. If we were going to be a bit more precise, some of the abstractions don't add up well; which can be a problem when the system is expanded to very large numbers (as, for example, when dealing with spaceships). DR, for instance, is not quite the correct way to model material resistance (although it would be important in determining if the object or creature in question is damaged at all). After all, if a structure is made by some fantastical element 10 times as though as steel; the most obvious way to model that would be to divide damage received by 10, not to take away a static value from damage.

But while the abstractions might occasionally not make perfect sense (in fact, this is probably the case for any RPG system); GURPS had a really nice story of putting an effort in making those things work. Like how the Body of Fire advantage from GURPS Supers had a specific temperature for the flames depending on how many levels you had. Or how the telekinesis in the older edition used your power to determine how much weight you could move and how fast, and from that you might calculate damage and what not.

The new edition (well, it is not so new anymore, I guess) seems to have wanted to do away with some of this focus on simulations. In fact; damage and "attacks" are in a way not even connected to the physical even they represent. Rather, they are supposed (by the rules at least, as the GM is usually free to do as he wishes) to be game elements, not some simulation. Being resistant to very high temperatures doesn't automatically give you any resistance to fire damage, for instance. I suppose that tradition and culture of trying to "simulate" things in GURPS is no longer be in the forefront of GURPS consumers. This, I feel, is a pity. Not only because the game changed, but also because no one seems to really be making games with that focus anymore (but please, if anyone wants to prove me wrong in this regard, go ahead!). In fact, I think the only two games that had much focus on this were GURPS and Shadowrun (before the 4th edition and changing companies).

Which brings me to the last point of this rant. Whenever I find a topic like this, I always hear how people who want complexity and details in GURPS are a "vocal minority". How we make a lot of noise but we aren't really a viable market. And apparently how we are unreasonable as well. I don't want to speak for anyone else. In fact, I've never even seen anyone here being exceedingly vocal about that, but then again I don't visit this forum all that much either.

But is it so strange that people whose preferred way of play was ignored by everyone would be vocal about what they like? GURPS is nowhere as prominent now as it was in the 90s (maybe the 80s as well, but that is before my time). So, of course, 4th edition saw less books being published than 3rd. Smaller supplements became more common; and there is a limit to how much detail you can do in those. Being reasonable, it is understandable that fans of simulation in GURPS saw much less focus on them in this edition. And while we are being fair, there were a couple of very good supplements for us in 4th edition as well, even if the basic philosophy of the system seems to be less favourable for this kind of game. A few good Pyramid articles, some smaller supplements, the tech books... And while there were a ton of attempts to do magic using powers; the original GURPS Magic system was untouched and published.

But at the end of the day, this is a very under-served market. I am not saying SJGames or anyone else owes us giving a chance, but I am saying it is rather frustrating not having a single system in the market that tries to focus on this; and in particular, having older systems like GURPS that once did shying away from doing so again.

Edit: As a parting thought for this rant... I guess in the end this is all a problem of managing expectations as well!

Last edited by AlexAB; 06-23-2021 at 10:47 AM. Reason: Parting Thought
AlexAB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 03:07 PM   #108
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

New GMs need a simple entry point. At the moment that's really not available from SJGames IMO. You cant get new players unless you can create new GMs which make new groups.

I can't buy a prepackaged adventure that gets me (as GM) and 3-6 people through 2 or 3 sessions of themed game play to see how skills work, how combat 'can' work, and is generally representative of the fun we can have with GURPS. I'm not talking about Epic campaign boxes, I mean stuff like I Smell a Rat and Against the Rat Men. They aren't complex, but they are representative of simple games that can introduce people to the possibilities.

I have my own "training camp" adventure, but really I tire of running it. It's sort of specific so not really an all around intro to GURPS, as much as how GURPS works at my table.

DFRPG shrunk the borders of character creation, but has failed to deliver simple adventure modules with these more compact character generation choices. They have put out some great books, and excellent expansions (Im a big fan of the DF stuff). Missing is ten or so decent adventures (focused on a max of three genres) ranging from 3-4 hours each with pregen characters to 12-15 hours with some template characters and some development choices. 3-4 hours of game play is what I consider a session (even though that takes most of us 5-7 hours to get through between Princess Bride quote battles, John looking some once offered in italics flavor text rule combo that might have been a weird brown font, and "do you remember when" sidebars)

You can find some fan stuff, and HUGE props to them (hat tip from me to 1shotadventures.com , you do great stuff), I couldn't do it. I can do my own stuff, but packaging something for any level1 GM to grab, that's skills I don't really have.

At the end of the day SJGames putting out entry level stuff that someone can pick up off the rack and requires Basic+1 book, it's just not there.
bocephus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 04:10 PM   #109
Tymathee
 
Tymathee's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: I'd rather be alone than be with people who make me feel alone.
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

I think the move towards higher abstraction in rules over realism in rules is a better move for GURPS. When GMs talk realism of game mechanics within their games, they really ought to just call it selective realism. I can't imagine a single GM who could fully emulate every aspect of what would make for realistic game mechanics... as that's certainly not wholly reflected in the GURPS 4E rules. It's just not realistic expectations. No one can be that cognizant of every nitty gritty detail... not without some third party on hand who's massively knowledgeable to verify whether the GM is implementing realism "correctly" in their game, and even that's just silly. GURPS 4E trying to account for total realism in their game mechanics is a logistics nightmare.
Tymathee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2021, 05:11 PM   #110
Prince Charon
 
Prince Charon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
New GMs need a simple entry point. At the moment that's really not available from SJGames IMO. You cant get new players unless you can create new GMs which make new groups.
Something like GURPS Lite plus Caravan to Ein Arris?
__________________
Warning, I have the Distractible and Imaginative quirks in real life.

"The more corrupt a government, the more it legislates."
-- Tacitus

Five Earths, All in a Row. Updated 12/17/2022: Apocrypha: Bridges out of Time, Part I has been posted.
Prince Charon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
how to be a gurps gm, managing expectations

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.