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Old 11-28-2022, 02:27 PM   #11
Dalin
 
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I thought this thread might help tamp down my ABSOLUTE EAGERNESS for the new book. I was wrong.
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Old 11-28-2022, 02:51 PM   #12
Christopher R. Rice
 
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I thought this thread might help tamp down my ABSOLUTE EAGERNESS for the new book. I was wrong.
I will reveal (in general terms) 1d-1 more things. :-)
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Old 11-28-2022, 04:02 PM   #13
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I thought this thread might help tamp down my ABSOLUTE EAGERNESS for the new book. I was wrong.
:)

If you're in the mood to exercise that eagerness by running an all-thieves DFRPG heist one-shot, I'd be up for that.
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Old 11-28-2022, 08:57 PM   #14
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I think the fundamental problem thieves have is that they spend their points becoming very good at non-combat stuff in a genre that intentionally glosses over non-combat stuff as much as possible. If looting a dungeon were played less as a smash-and-grab and more as a heist then the thief would be very effective, but such a playstyle would marginalize many of the other character types, so problems are generally resolved violently and the thief struggles to pull his weight.
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Old 11-28-2022, 09:07 PM   #15
Dalin
 
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:)

If you're in the mood to exercise that eagerness by running an all-thieves DFRPG heist one-shot, I'd be up for that.
That sounds awesome. Someday I will retire and be able to indulge this hobby 24×7...
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Old 11-28-2022, 09:19 PM   #16
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Another challenge with thieves that has been discussed before (and not just in DF) is the fact that since their skills are fundamentally mundane, they can usually be replicated in other ways. There's not much that a thief can do that a well-placed spell or barbarian's axe or scout's arrow couldn't also manage. On the one hand, this is good; an adventure should be solvable with different mixes of professions. But unless the scenario is well-designed, the thief can feel a bit lackluster.

I need to think about this as I design scenarios. Targeted low or null mana areas. Occasional orichalcum and/or meteoric locks. Plenty of fragile valuables that don't play nice with the barbarian's methods. Etc.
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Old 11-29-2022, 12:53 AM   #17
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I think the fundamental problem thieves have is that they spend their points becoming very good at non-combat stuff in a genre that intentionally glosses over non-combat stuff as much as possible.
Within that genre, I think DFRPG does better than many of its peers in bringing non-combat challenges to the fore. Still, the genre is what it is...

I suppose we just have a classic case here of "the GM should accommodate what the players want".
If every player builds a combat specialist and is eager to vanquish bad guys, then there's no problem with planning what's foremost a game of Monster Slayers (with treasure to be gained as a sideline).
But if there's even one player of a thief (or other PC) looking to do more than battle, the GM should think of it first as a game of Treasure Hunters (though still with plenty of monsters).

Just a matter of adding lots of non-combat challenges requiring stealth, spying, mobility, trickery, avoidance, theft, etc. The dungeon as a heist, as you put it.
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Old 11-29-2022, 06:29 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
Another challenge with thieves that has been discussed before (and not just in DF) is the fact that since their skills are fundamentally mundane, they can usually be replicated in other ways. There's not much that a thief can do that a well-placed spell or barbarian's axe or scout's arrow couldn't also manage.
I don't think that's related to the fact that Thief skills are mundane; only because they are task-oriented and atomic. Ocean's Eleven "I saw this coming and I already bribed this guy" is mundane but non-atomic; it's not something a task-oriented wizard spell could easily replicate. You could mind control the guy into helping you for an hour with Loyalty, but unlike Danny Ocean you'd have to kill him afterwards or similar, to ensure that he wouldn't tell Terry Benedict; it would play out completely different from Danny's willing accomplice.

Blades In The Dark is reputedly built on top of this type of "I planned for this already" type of play, and there's no reason in principle you couldn't do it in DFRPG. In dungeon crawls, the thief does already have a Gizmos which sort of symbolizes the same thing, and access to Serendipity, but Gizmos can only produce tools, not relevant documents or contacts, and players don't control Serendipity. Also the fact that thieves have only 30 points for advantages makes it tricky to afford things like widgets and Serendipity.

Point is though that magic, in particular D&D-style magic including DFRPG magic, is only good at replicating certain kinds of mundane activities. If thieves had the ability to say, "oh hey, I already have records of the last expedition to this dungeon ten years ago, and here's a map of all the monsters and secret doors from back then," they'd be useful in a way that magic can't directly replicate. (Wizard Eye can do something similar but requires FP, time, and player effort to arrange for things like ways to open doors and avoid monsters. Wizard Eye doesn't let you just skip straight to the answers like our hypothetical thief can.)

Other ideas for thieves' preparations include:

"My smoke-bomb distraction in the hobgoblin captain's quarters should be going off about... now."

"Let him run. I already planted caltrops in that corridor."

"Actually I do know how to jury-rig a wheelbarrow. It requires a wheel and fulcrum but fortunately... I have one on my saddle horse. I'll be back in a jiffy."

"You don't want to go that way, believe me. There's entirely too much stabbing and crushing in that direction. I checked."

Last edited by sjmdw45; 11-29-2022 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 11-29-2022, 08:51 AM   #19
Christopher R. Rice
 
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I rolled a 4 so I guess that's three bits from the book. First come, first answered.
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Old 11-29-2022, 02:42 PM   #20
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There are 5 new templates: Bandit, ...
250-point bandits should create work for delvers as guards for merchants. This is not a request for a reveal.
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