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Old 11-23-2022, 11:13 AM   #21
beaushinkle
 
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

Ah! The troubles of mixing meanings.
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Old 11-24-2022, 07:37 AM   #22
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
For the "and cheap or no armor" , I think it is simply 'cheap' as an adjective (inexpensive), not an attribute.
That's what I figured, too, as there's no single "Cheap" mod for armor. (Though I think there are some mods for low-quality armor tucked away in the Low-Tech series or somewhere.)

So I assume those zombies and orcs will usually have little (and thus low-value) armor: cloth/leather, or just a piece or two of heavier armor.
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Old 11-24-2022, 07:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
That's what I figured, too, as there's no single "Cheap" mod for armor. (Though I think there are some mods for low-quality armor tucked away in the Low-Tech series or somewhere.)

Kevin put a solid box on it in Delvers to Grow as well.
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Old 11-24-2022, 07:50 AM   #24
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by beaushinkle View Post
This implies that field crafting is possible, but what are the rest of the parameters? Or more specifically, how many labor-hours does it require to make such a thing?
I figure it's just something the game intentionally leaves out. Almost all of the "how much time do in-Town tasks take?" stuff is filed under "don't worry about it".

Which I'm fine with. But it does necessitate some GM calls:

"You'll have just one day in Town."
"Okay. I need to craft a new set of plate armor."

Hmm...
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Old 11-24-2022, 08:04 AM   #25
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Kevin put a solid box on it in Delvers to Grow as well.
Ah, maybe that's where I saw it. There it is, on p37.

And that same box also introduces GURPS' Cheap mod for weapons to DFRPG, so that's nice too. (Exploits p49 mentions the modifier to breakage for cheap weapons, but Adventurers doesn't offer the Cheap mod as an actual option.)

Though, since we're on the topic of discrepancies, I'll be annoying now: Shouldn't Delvers to Grow describe Cheap weapons as having +2 to odds of breakage, not -2?
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Old 11-24-2022, 08:13 AM   #26
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
That's what I figured, too, as there's no single "Cheap" mod for armor. (Though I think there are some mods for low-quality armor tucked away in the Low-Tech series or somewhere.)

So I assume those zombies and orcs will usually have little (and thus low-value) armor: cloth/leather, or just a piece or two of heavier armor.
Monsters pg 34 has a definition of sorts for poor-quality armor:

Hobgoblins wear scavenged scale, mail, and plate bits that average DR 3 (included above); gaps remove -2 from the penalty for Attacking Chinks in Armor (Exploits, p. 37), and resale value is $1d x30 as scrap if someone hauls 40-50 lbs. back to town (see Scrap, Exploits, pp. 16-17). They wield medium shields (DB 2) and crude, saw-toothed falchions that leave nasty wounds (break as cheap, and sell for at most $125).

Scale armor is 48 lb. and $960 for DR 3 (2 vs crushing). So if you can loot armor off a hobgoblin nstead of buying scale, that's a good deal. Effectively $100ish for DR 3 and less weight. The bonus to targeting armor chinks does not matter, either vs. orcs or against PCs or their hirelings. A -6 penalty to attack torso chinks in exchange for an effective +2 damage bonus is not worth it. You would LOVE for enemies to take that trade instead of attacking your vitals or face.

Edit: here's Low-Tech's take on cheap armor (pg 109).

Cheap Quality
This might be mass-produced munitions armor, issued to an army’s rank and file; an early example is the lorica segmentata (Segmented Plate, pp. 107-108) of the Roman legions. Alternatively, the armor could be the work of an inexperienced armorer, or incorporate low-grad materials. Cheap armor has -1 DR. -0.6 CF; weight is unchanged.

Last edited by sjmdw45; 11-25-2022 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 11-26-2022, 08:31 AM   #27
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
Though, since we're on the topic of discrepancies, I'll be annoying now: Shouldn't Delvers to Grow describe Cheap weapons as having +2 to odds of breakage, not -2?
Yup, looks like Delvers got the symbol reversed.
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Old 01-08-2023, 04:15 PM   #28
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

TL;DR
Unkillable (Total) in DFRPG is missing a sentence that says "You regain consciousness once you have positive HP." from Gurps Basic.

Reasoning

Discovered this while running my players through a Troll Lair.

Trolls have Recovery, Regeneration (2HP/s), and Unkillable (Total; Achillies Heel, burn or cor).

The definition of Unkillable(Total) on DFM12 doesn't mention anything about (un)consciousness.

This means that in DFRPG if a Troll goes to negative HP, and then fails a HT roll (26% every second), once it heals to positive HP, it doesn't wake up until 15 seconds have passed since it was unconscious (DFE62 gives that as 15 minutes, Recovery, DFA52 changes minutes to seconds).

15 seconds is usually *well more* than enough time for delvers to finish off the troll's friends and then circle back to the troll to burn the body.

This is notable for three reasons:
  1. It doesn't match Gurps Basic
  2. It doesn't match the flavor text of trolls
  3. It doesn't match genre tropes

In Gurps Basic, Unkillable 3 (which is what Unkillable (Total) copy+pastes from), has a very important line:

"You regain consciousness once you have positive HP."

So the GURPS version of Unkillable (which many monster entries use, and their advantage list is copied directly from the Gurps DF line of monsters) is different. Porting over Unkillable monsters from DF to DFRPG nerfs them (presumably unintentionally).

Flavor Text
DFM57 states "Only fire or acid can kill trolls (common knowledge that requires no roll to recall), so they fear nothing – including such attacks. Many a troll sports scars from acid or fire wielded by some now-dead foe!"

Given that trolls fall unconscious easily (only 12 HT) and don't heal fast enough to outpace damage, regular weapons are very dangerous to Trolls. A pack of Trolls could definitely all be felled with mundane damage, kept dead with mundane damage, and then burned to death with rudimentary fire damage before they raise from consciousness. They'd have died without ever knowing that their foes had access to fire or acid (which is exactly what happened in my game).

Genre Tropes
This model of Troll Recovery doesn't create whack-a-mole Troll encounters where their regeneration is a big, relevant part of the battle (like it is in B/X, video games like baldur's gate/icewind dale, or more modern RPGs).
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Old 01-09-2023, 08:34 AM   #29
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaushinkle View Post
TL;DR
Unkillable (Total) in DFRPG is missing a sentence that says "You regain consciousness once you have positive HP." from Gurps Basic.
Agreed. I have always run trolls this way, blissfully unaware that it wasn't RAW.
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Old 01-09-2023, 09:48 AM   #30
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

The trope-maker is the troll from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions.

Hugi said dourly, ‘Methinks I’d liefer face all oor past playmates rolled into ane, than the hunter o’ yon pass. Like a wolverine to a bear, so be a troll to a giant. Not so big, mayhap, but fierce beyond measure, cunning, and gripsome o’ life. Many giants ha’ been killed by mortal men, this way or that, but the tale is that no knicht ha’ ever come off victor against a troll.’ ‘So?’ Carahue lifted his brows. ‘Are they not pained by iron?’ ‘Aye. That is, iron will burn ’em, as a red-hot poker ’ud burn ye. Yet ye micht easily overcome a man who fought ye wi’ sic a weapon, and soon recover from what wounds ye got. Trolls are akin to the ghouls, and thus may gang near holiness if it be not too great. Yer cross will give scant help unless ye be a saint. More I dinna know, for few who saw a troll ha’ e’er returned to describe habits nor habitat.'

Eventually they meet the troll, and through cunning (striking deliberately for its right wrist to dismember the hand) and skill they defeat it.

‘Merciful heaven,’ gasped Carahue. He crossed himself. Turning to Holger, he called gaily, ‘That wasn’t too bad, though, was it?’ Holger looked at his own caved-in shield. ‘No,’ he said in a rueful mood. ‘Except for my own performance.’ The mare still shivered, but had calmed enough for Alianora to stroke her neck. ‘Come, let’s gang on oot,’ said Hugi. ‘The fetor here’s like to melt ma nase.’ Holger nodded. ‘Shouldn’t be far--[exclamation]!'

Like a huge green spider, the troll’s severed hand ran on its fingers. Across the mounded floor, up onto a log with one taloned forefinger to hook it over the bark, down again it scrambled, until it found the cut wrist. And there it grew fast. The troll’s smashed head seethed and knit together. He clambered back on his feet and grinned at them. The waning [torch] cast red light over his fangs.


They're all standing around discussing their victory when, like a slasher movie villain, its dismembered body comes back to life, and doesn't stop until they burn it to ash.

So, knocking a troll temporarily unconscious is totally fair game by the original genre tropes. Regeneration is the troll's horror movie epilogue, not the essence of the beast. DFRPG's trolls' huge size, fierce offense, and utter fearlessness capture the feel quite well.
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