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Old 10-30-2022, 03:03 AM   #11
sjmdw45
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone View Post
Hm, good call. The table is in line with the text where piercing and impaling damage are concerned, but it also gives homogenous creatures their own special set of damage mods for corrosion, cutting, and crushing dam.

I go by the table, and I assume it's "correct" (if for no other reason than that tables feel more deliberate and "official" than text).
It does feel more "official", but to me it also feels less logical. Why would a homogeneous creature like an earth elemental take more damage when you hit it in the neck than the leg or head? Even if that's the "official" rule I am inclined to go with "no wounding modifiers for hit location, period."

Last edited by sjmdw45; 10-30-2022 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 10-30-2022, 03:52 AM   #12
Balor Patch
 
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
It does feel more "official", but to me it also feels less logical. Why would a homogeneous creature like an earth elemental take more damage when you hit it in the neck than the leg or head? Even if that's the "official" rule I am inclined to go with "no wounding modifiers for hit location, period."
GURPS p.60 Homogenous explicitly includes No Brain and No Vitals. Those options are directly below it right along with others not mentioned: No Blood, No Eyes, No Head, and No Neck; so the lack of mention is probably not an oversight and the addition would need to be priced in. On the other hand, I'd almost always rather have HP +20 than Homogenous so maybe it is.
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Old 10-30-2022, 04:40 AM   #13
sjmdw45
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
GURPS p.60 Homogenous explicitly includes No Brain and No Vitals. Those options are directly below it right along with others not mentioned: No Blood, No Eyes, No Head, and No Neck; so the lack of mention is probably not an oversight and the addition would need to be priced in. On the other hand, I'd almost always rather have HP +20 than Homogenous so maybe it is.
At least in DFRPG play, Homogeneous makes monsters much tougher than +20 HP. A 45 HP Giant Ape still goes unconscious in one shot if you shoot it in the eye (or sword to the skull if you're flying), whereas a 15 HP Bronze Spider or 25 HP Earth Elemental takes several whacks with a sword to disable and are relatively impervious to arrows (since bodkins and cutting heads are mutually exclusive).

Ignoring all wounding modifiers for homogeneous also simplifies running homogeneous monsters: having to look up whether Earth Elementals have No Neck feels like a needless complication.

Last edited by sjmdw45; 10-30-2022 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 11-01-2022, 09:10 PM   #14
mburr0003
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
4) Your procedures for searching sound fine. I only note that the book's text isn't clear. I'd like to see future updates note in both descriptions that Search is indeed used for searching packs/wagons, not only pockets, bodies, etc.
Just a note, not sure if it's been mentioned in thread...

Search† has undergone a slight shift over the course of 4e, it started in GURPS Basic Characters as "This is the ability to search people, baggage, and vehicles for items that aren’t in plain sight."

However it quickly became clear that there needed to be a "find stuff in an area" skill, so it was expanded in Action 2 Exploits and as well in After the End 2 The New World‡.

However in Dungeon Fantasy 2 Dungeons search remained relegated to patting down bodies for loot, not scouring whole rooms (for that see either Scrounging or Observation). This is carried over to DFRPG (I do like that in DFRPG how to 'search' a room is called in out in the skill description for Search).


† As well as Observation. In the DF/RPG line it's become the "search" for hidden things skill. Which is fine, the skill was needed after all... and it does minimize skill bloat a bit. I'm just annoyed a little by it is all... personally I use Search for "active searching" and Observation for "passive noticing", but that's my house rule. The other skills then can either substitute in for specific uses (Traps mostly) or act as a Complimentary Skill if lower.

‡ But only for finding specific items in an area in AtE. Finding "loot" in an area in AtE requires Scrounging or other specific skills, not Search.
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Old 11-02-2022, 04:59 AM   #15
johndallman
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

The change to Search seems to have happened during 2008. DF2 appeared in January 2008, and Action 2 in October the same year. DFRPG followed the DF2 rule.
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Old 11-02-2022, 11:34 AM   #16
tbone
 
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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... personally I use Search for "active searching" and Observation for "passive noticing", but that's my house rule.
It's a useful split, no doubt... But I take Observation as the skill of active noticing, too - specifically, it's the thing cops do on a stakeout, crooks do when casing a joint, sentries do while on watch, etc. Watching a scene to pick up [whatever it is being sought].

Yet it has something of a passive angle, too. That is, when the PC detective passes through a scene, it's a perfectly good thing for the GM to roll against to have the PC notice clues or some noteworthy things, even if the player didn't say the PC was actively looking for such. In which case success may mean the PC was actively scanning for points of interest (even if subconsciously), as a matter of training and habit. So Observation here essentially works like a passive sense roll, even if it's (semi-)active behavior on the PC's part.

Search, meanwhile... yeah, active and conscious, IMO, as you say.

To johndallman:

That's some good History of GURPS sleuthing. Action 2 calls Search the skill to "...find anything on a body or in a car, a room, or even an entire building." I like that: it covers a lot of ground with one handy skill.
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Old 11-02-2022, 02:48 PM   #17
Kristoffer
 
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
1) The text does seem clear in specifying HT 23. It's just... odd in the game; no other monster is built like that. It essentially means "some ogres succeed at all HT rolls (crits aside), die only at -5xHP, etc.".

Maybe that idea comes from some depiction of ogres in literature; I don't know. But... well, nothing wrong with an oddity or few in the game. I'll take it as written, not as an error.

2) That may be, but then again, there are other weapons that allow one- or two-handed use but don't have the asterisk. (Even then, maybe everything is according to a plan: perhaps the rule is "the weapon gets an asterisk if it can be used 1- or 2-handed with the same skill; no asterisk if 1- vs 2-handed use involves different skills (a la bastard sword)".)

3) I'm guessing it should be FP, for the simple reason that spells are cast using FP, not HP.

4) Your procedures for searching sound fine. I only note that the book's text isn't clear. I'd like to see future updates note in both descriptions that Search is indeed used for searching packs/wagons, not only pockets, bodies, etc.

Anyway, all minor stuff. Overall, DFRPG is nicely clear, and low on errors & contradictions.

Thanks for the reply!
2) When there is a an asterisk, it means there is a ready maneuver to change grip, if there isn't, you don't have to use a ready maneuver.

3) Nah, I think it is HP, besides HP can be used to cast spells.
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Old 11-23-2022, 10:18 AM   #18
beaushinkle
 
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

I think Alchemy in the Field could use some clarification.

For instance, on DFA72, we have the Alchemy skill.

Quote:
...Most potion brewing is done by NPCs. If you have time in town, though, a successful roll will let you do some of the work yourself, scoring a 20% discount. See Getting Stuff Cheap (DFE13-14).
DFE13 says:

Quote:
Brewing: Individuals with Alchemy can use the crafting rules above for any chemical or potion.
Which refers to:

Quote:
Crafting: Heroes with Armory can start with ordinary weapons and armor of their own making – anything listed in Adventurers that isn’t fine, magical, or otherwise extraordinary. Materials and labor consume starting cash equivalent to list cost, but roll against skill: any success reduces the price by 20%, while any failure means wastage that adds 10%. Use whatever specialty (Body Armor, Melee Weapons, or Missile Weapons) suits the item.
So here, it's a little odd. Crafting specifies starting cash. As in, when you create your character, you can roll against Armory or Alchemy or whatever to get your starting equipment cheaper. It doesn't provide a way for characters to get discounts (as implied by the alchemy text on DFA72) after play begins. The time doesn't matter for character creation: any time spent happened before play, but it is relevant after play begins.

For instance, say that a player wants to craft a craft 10 arrows in town. How long does that that take? Does it take the same amount of time as crafting Scale Armor? Say that an alchemist wants to craft a Minor Healing Potion ($120) in town - how long does that take? Does it take the same amount of time as crafting an Invisibility Potion ($2250)?

This gets more awkward when we get to field crafting. A scout runs out of arrows on a delve and wants to craft more. Unsupported. A Wizard wants to use their Backpack Alchemy Lab ($1000, 10lbs) to craft a Strength Potion ($250). The Backpack Alchemy Lab (DFA114) says "-2 to brew anything in the field".

This implies that field crafting is possible, but what are the rest of the parameters? Or more specifically, how many labor-hours does it require to make such a thing?
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Old 11-23-2022, 10:35 AM   #19
beaushinkle
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

Cheap Weapons and Armor
DFE49 notes:

Quote:
Weapon quality modifies the odds: +2 if the parrying weapon is cheap, -1 if fine, or -2 if very fine.
Quote:
Equipping every humanoid foe this way is giving away money – so unless that’s the goal, the GM should outfit ordinary zombies and orcs with clubs or spears, and cheap or no armor.
The only reference to the definition of what a cheap weapon is that I can find is on DFA49:
Quote:
You can parry with a non-weapon of suitable size and shape, using the closest melee weapon skill. A pole could parry like a staff; a bow, like a club. Such weapons count as cheap for breakage; see Parrying Heavy Weapons (below).
GURPS basic includes a mechanical definition of Cheap weapons on B276 that we can smoothly import. I haven't found an official one yet for Cheap armor.

Winter / Arctic Clothing
The rules for Temperature on DFE70 state:

Quote:
Cold: Roll at -5 without winter clothing or for wet clothing, 0 for dry winter clothing, or +5 with genuine arctic clothing.
But winter clothing and arctic clothing are both undefined. A little bit of digging reveals that they were both defined on DF16, p16, and were probably forgotten in the DF => DFRPG conversion.

Last edited by beaushinkle; 11-23-2022 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 11-23-2022, 11:10 AM   #20
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: DFRPG questions: Discrepancy/errata (?) edition

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Originally Posted by beaushinkle View Post
Cheap Weapons and Armor
DFE49 notes:





The only reference to the definition of what a cheap weapon is that I can find is on DFA49:

GURPS basic includes a mechanical definition of Cheap weapons on B276 that we can smoothly import. I haven't found an official one yet for Cheap armor.

Winter / Arctic Clothing
The rules for Temperature on DFE70 state:



But winter clothing and arctic clothing are both undefined. A little bit of digging reveals that they were both defined on DF16, p16, and were probably forgotten in the DF => DFRPG conversion.
For the "and cheap or no armor" , I think it is simply 'cheap' as an adjective (inexpensive), not an attribute.
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