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Old 10-19-2022, 09:50 PM   #1
sjmdw45
 
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Default Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

Exploits says "Eye (-9): Impaling and all piercing attacks can target the eye. Injury over HP/10 blinds the eye. Otherwise, treat as a skull hit without the extra DR 2!"

1.) Unlike GURPS, DFRPG doesn't seem to have a rule in Adventurers or in Monsters that says DR doesn't apply to eyes. Is this an oversight? (The existence of Nictitating Membrane implies that it probably is, but maybe the intention is for e.g. large dragons to have DR 18 on their eyes and DR 9 elsewhere.)

2.) The Sunbolt spell says, "Sunbolt does burning damage, may ignite flammable targets, and counts as sunlight against creatures susceptible to such. Anyone struck in the face must roll vs. HT, even if no damage penetrates armor; those hit in the eyes must roll at a penalty equal to any injury caused. Failure means being blinded, which counts as a crippling injury; see Duration of Crippling (Exploits, p. 61)."

Sunbolt is burning damage, not impaling or piercing, so how can it target the eyes? Is this just a special exception that lets Sunbolt act like piercing damage in this case? Does it get the x4 wounding modifier and enhanced knockdown? Does that make the HT save against blinding redundant, or is it more like 'your right eye is now gone and your left eye might be blinded'?
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Old 10-20-2022, 09:38 AM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Exploits says "Eye (-9): Impaling and all piercing attacks can target the eye. Injury over HP/10 blinds the eye. Otherwise, treat as a skull hit without the extra DR 2!"

1.) Unlike GURPS, DFRPG doesn't seem to have a rule in Adventurers or in Monsters that says DR doesn't apply to eyes.
It's in the Hit Location Table, Exploits, p. 99.

Check the footnotes, specifically [2] and [3]
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Old 10-20-2022, 10:05 AM   #3
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
It's in the Hit Location Table, Exploits, p. 99.

Check the footnotes, specifically [2] and [3]
My copy of Exploits says nothing on page 99 about bypassing DR on an eye hit. It just repeats the text from page 54. Am I missing an errata?

Footnote 2: "Only impaling and piercing attacks can target the eye--and only from the front and sides. Injury over HP/10 blinds the eye. Otherwise, treat as skull (see note [3]) without the extra DR!"

Not "without DR", just without the extra +2 to DR.

Footnote 3: "Skull gets an extra DR 2. Wounding modifier for all but fatigue or toxic damage increases to x4. Knockdown rolls for major wounds are at -10. Critical hits use the Critical Head Blow table (p. 100)."

Nor is this covered on Monsters page 15, which just says that DR is total DR from all sources and is not from armor unless noted. In GURPS the DR advantage says it doesn't cover eyes (unless enhanced with force field). DFRPG doesn't say this anywhere. DFRPG does say that Tough Skin doesn't protect the eyes (or against poison, shock, etc.), but many or most monsters with DR do not have it via Tough Skin or armor.

Stabbing a DR 10 Mindwarper in the eye for 9 points of damage, or a DR 17 reanimated Golem Armor Swordsman after the flesh golem is dead and it's just an "armor golem", will do either zero injury (if DR is not ignored) or likely kill the monster in one hit (if DR is ignored). DFRPG implies the former, while GURPS Basic and Kromm's posts about ways to defeat Golem Armor Swordsmen imply the latter. This makes the lack of armor-bypassing rules on Exploits pg 54 and 99 look like an oversight.

How do others do it? Also how do you rule on Sunbolt to the eyes even though it's not piercing or impaling damage?

Last edited by sjmdw45; 10-20-2022 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 10-20-2022, 10:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Not "without DR", just without the extra +2 to DR.
A fair point. The "eye DR" Trait in Monsters is Nictitating Membrane...which just says "DR for the eye is..." and doesn't tell what happens after you punch through that and blind the eye.

Interesting.
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Old 10-20-2022, 11:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

I went right to Sean on this one:

Quote:
On 20 Oct 2022 at 10:29, Douglas Cole wrote:

> If a monster has DR 6 without nictitating membrane, does this mean:

> Eyes have DR 0, Skull has DR 8
> Eyes have DR 6, Skull has DR 8

The latter. Eyes aren't supposed to have DR except from Nictitating
Membrane and force field-like effects.

> I know this is pedantic, but I was wondering if your intent was that
> monster eyes are tougher than adventurer eyes.

No! While that might be better for game balance in *some* campaigns, it
would nerf a lot of professions in *other* campaigns.

SP.
So you're reading it right: The monster base DR is all attacks BUT the eyes, and the "extra skull DR" doesn't apply, but the base monster DR DOES.

So to shoot a creature with DR 6, Nictitating Membrane 3 the way scouts like to, you have to first punch through DR 3 for the membrane, and then injury of HP/10 or more blinds the eye. You must then punch through the monster base DR 6 before you get to the creamy monster center for the x4.
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Old 10-20-2022, 11:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Punch via Doug Cole
On 20 Oct 2022 at 10:29, Douglas Cole wrote:

> If a monster has DR 6 without nictitating membrane, does this mean:

> Eyes have DR 0, Skull has DR 8
> Eyes have DR 6, Skull has DR 8

The latter. Eyes aren't supposed to have DR except from Nictitating
Membrane and force field-like effects.

> I know this is pedantic, but I was wondering if your intent was that
> monster eyes are tougher than adventurer eyes.

No! While that might be better for game balance in *some* campaigns, it
would nerf a lot of professions in *other* campaigns.

SP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I went right to Sean on this one:

So you're reading it right: The monster base DR is all attacks BUT the eyes, and the "extra skull DR" doesn't apply, but the base monster DR DOES.
Thanks for checking. Note however that I read Kromm's answer the opposite of how you do: when Kromm says "the latter" he clearly means "the former" in this case because he's explicit that "Eyes aren't supposed to have DR except from Nictitating Membrane and force field-like effects," because giving eyes DR "would nerf a lot of professions in *other* campaigns."

Therefore it's not intended that "but the base monster DR DOES".

Hopefully DFRPG's next printing will add this to the Hit Location table. "Eye (-9): Impaling and all piercing attacks can target the eye. Injury over HP/10 blinds the eye. Otherwise, ignore all DR except force field DR and Nictitating Membrane DR, and treat as a skull hit without the extra DR 2!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
So to shoot a creature with DR 6, Nictitating Membrane 3 the way scouts like to, you have to first punch through DR 3 for the membrane, and then injury of HP/10 or more blinds the eye. You must then punch through the monster base DR 6 before you get to the creamy monster center for the x4.
Hmmm. That's an interesting interpretation which hadn't occurred to me, but again, I read Kromm as saying the opposite: the creamy monster center has only DR 3 total.

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Old 10-20-2022, 01:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Hmmm. That's an interesting interpretation which hadn't occurred to me, but again, I read Kromm as saying the opposite: the creamy monster center has only DR 3 total.
Reading and re-reading, both are plausible.

For the record, I've played it as "free shots to the brain" (which is mentioned in skull; it's not a hit location per se, but the fact that it's listed as the source of the x4 multiplier is salient) as well, for nigh-on 30 years.

The repeated emphasis on EXTRA for the skull DR and the very specific "subtract DR from basic damage," with no exceptions makes me wonder if this was a deliberate change, or an oversight caused by over-familiarity.

I can say that the lack of DR through the eyes makes monster design more laborious, as you need to always think "how do I deal with the scout and constant eye shots?" This isn't a bad thing; thinking is good. But I could also see it as "look, it says DR 6. Blind it all you want, but it's got an interior skeleton the toughness of a breastplate. It's a MONSTER."

I'll wait to see what Kromm says, definitely. I can say that all the monsters in my Bestiary were designed with the DR 0 --> brain pathway in mind.

It came up in playtest with a few mighty creatures in the current Nightmare Fuel campaign, so it's a relevant clarification. My life would be somewhat easier if it were still DR 0-->brain x4, as it means I don't have 185 monsters worth of errata to consider.
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Old 10-20-2022, 01:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

If you don't want eye-shots to bypass DR, it's an easy enough design switch to say "due to evolutionary pressures in a scout-rich environment (not to say blatant game balance choices), anything worth calling a monster has Nictitating Membrane equal to its innate DR".
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Old 10-20-2022, 02:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

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Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
If you don't want eye-shots to bypass DR, it's an easy enough design switch to say "due to evolutionary pressures in a scout-rich environment (not to say blatant game balance choices), anything worth calling a monster has Nictitating Membrane equal to its innate DR".
That's what we have to do, and have been doing. But it requires the GM to really look at the Trait list (though Nictitating Membrane 4 is pretty obvious to spot so long as you know what it is - Eye DR - already).

"Do your homework and know your monsters" is a legit ask, though. (Meaning it's fine to say "if you miss the eye DR because you don't look at the monster trait list, it's not on the author/writer/publisher. RTFM, etc.)
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Old 10-20-2022, 02:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: Targeting the Eyes: rules questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by From Sean via email
In summary, from outside in:

* Force field-like DR. Protects everything -- even the eyes -- against
all attacks that aren't specifically able to negate that kind of force
field. Listed with traits or spells, and often explained in the notes
on such things.

* Armor DR. Protects *after* force-field DR but *before* all other DR.
Protects only the specific hit locations on which the armor is worn; to
have it on the eyes, add a visor to your helmet. Listed in the notes on
gear.

* Natural DR. A surface feature that covers every hit location *except*
the eyes -- it never, ever has any effect on attacks targeting the eye
hit location. Listed as the DR stat.

* Skull DR. Bonus natural DR (usually +2) for the skull only. Protects
only if the skull hit location is targeted -- it never, ever has any
effect on attacks on the eye or face hit location.

* Nictitating Membrane. Natural DR for the eyes only. Protects only if
the eye hit location is targeted -- it never, ever has any effect on
attacks on the skull or face hit location. Listed as a trait.

When someone attacks the skull hit location, apply force field DR, then
helmet DR (which can be halved by targeting chinks in armor), then
natural DR, and finally skull DR. *Ignore* NM. All penetrating damage
is x4 for injury.

When someone attacks the eye hit location, apply force field DR, then
visor DR (which can be halved by targeting chinks in armor), and then
NM. *Ignore* natural and skull DR. All penetrating damage is x4 for
injury, and can also blind.

Where people get mixed up, I think, is in assuming the eye is almost an
external feature to the brain case. It isn't. It's a soft target on a
direct, DR 0 path to the brain. It offers no resistance and aiming for
it is a way to blind *and* kill with minimal damage.
And all was right with the world again, apparently. :-) Scouts the world over can retract shrieks of terror and party on again.
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