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Old 10-25-2016, 06:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: Mind Control Questions

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
That's almost the opposite of what I meant and wrote. I'm talking of continuing damage AFTER the trauma not during.
And what I said is that starts during, and continues after. So no, not the opposite.
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Old 10-25-2016, 06:45 PM   #12
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Default Re: Mind Control Questions

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Does this mean a roll vs singing or musical instrument is required or just that the skill is a prerequisite?
Skill is a prerequisite; if a roll was required the PM would be larger.

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Also, is singing a free action on this case or is a concentrate maneuver required?
Singing should be a free action. Requiring additional concentrate maneuvers would also have been reflected in the PM. Mind Control still requires Concentrate though.
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Even lingering effects like Mind Control's 1 min per margin of success? The Bard Songs from DF Power Ups have lingering effects, so I'm thinking that these don't just end.
"All effects" seems to mean all effects. The lingering effects from the Auras in DF 11 don't preclude the Bard from needing to make music, they just give a duration for which that music matters.

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Old 10-25-2016, 07:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: Mind Control Questions

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And what I said is that starts during, and continues after. So no, not the opposite.
It still sounds like exactly what are causes, effects, and lingering results are up in the air.
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Old 10-25-2016, 09:39 PM   #14
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Default Re: Mind Control Questions

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Skill is a prerequisite; if a roll was required the PM would be larger.

Singing should be a free action. Requiring additional concentrate maneuvers would also have been reflected in the PM. Mind Control still requires Concentrate though.

"All effects" seems to mean all effects. The lingering effects from the Auras in DF 11 don't preclude the Bard from needing to make music, they just give a duration for which that music matters.
Thanks.

Hm, so it seems that the Bard should be able to concentrate, make the Will contest roll, then continue to sing as a free action and still have the mind control work for 1x Degree of Success minuets. Commands will have to be sung, and if the bard stops singing then the effects will end.
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Old 10-25-2016, 10:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: Mind Control Questions

Yes, exactly.
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Old 11-10-2016, 07:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: Mind Control Questions

A few more questions:

1) If the bard must keep singing, I assume the target must also still be able to hear the song. In cases where the bard commands the subject to leave, that will only last till they get outside of the audible range of the song, right?

2) What about controlling multiple subjects? Does the bard (turn 1) concentrate and begin singing. Then (turn 2) concentrate on the second subject while the "dropping" the concentration on the first (but letting the 1 min per margin of victory last) while keep singing? Basically allowing the song to maintain the magic for both (or even more) subjects?

3) How long before the subject begins to act on the Bard's command? Basic states that the character with Mind Control must concentrate for one second then roll. I've been treating this the same as a 1 second spell, where they may concentrate and roll on the same combat turn. This means that the control begins immediately and the subject will do what the bard wants on IT's next turn... but maybe it needs to loose "its" turn and instead act on the Bards next turn.
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:12 AM   #17
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1) If the bard must keep singing, I assume the target must also still be able to hear the song. In cases where the bard commands the subject to leave, that will only last till they get outside of the audible range of the song, right?
Yes. Take a look at the build for Baneful Song in PU4 or DF11. It has Reduced Duration 1/60 precisely to cut down the effect to one turn after you last hear the song, rather than the usual minute.

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2) What about controlling multiple subjects?
Baleful Song also includes Area Effect (2 yards by default) and Selective Area, so the bard can affect anyone he chooses within his area. (You'd likely want to buy up that area for many songs.) Of course, Mind Control makes the victim Reprogrammable for you, so you still have to explain to each subject what you want them to do. So, in combat, this is going to tend to limit the effects to really short commands to the group as a whole. ("Kill them", not "two fighters form a shield wall to protect Greymantle our wizard here, while you two go around the left flank and start harassing them with arrow fire" -- which sentence took me six seconds just to say.)

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3) How long before the subject begins to act on the Bard's command? Basic states that the character with Mind Control must concentrate for one second then roll. I've been treating this the same as a 1 second spell, where they may concentrate and roll on the same combat turn.
Yes; that's how Concentration normally behaves. Keep in mind that the bard has to continue to sing and maintain concentration to keep the subjects under control. (For instance, getting hit and failing a Will roll breaks Concentration.) One downside of that Reduced Duration 1/60 is that there isn't any lingering effect. The ability becomes ongoing concentration for ongoing control, rather than Concentrate one second for one minute of control, and since the bard is Concentrating on his song, he's not doing anything else like studying his surroundings or concocting complicated master plans for his team of new minions to carry out.

Also, victims of Mind Control get a Will roll to resist when you first establish it. That's happening every single second with the Baneful Song build, as the effect lasts for 1 second and then gets applied again on the bard's next turn. (When taken literally per RAW, it would be kind of a die-rolling pain for a large group, and you'd get weird sporadic behavior as a victim obeys for a couple of seconds, then recovers, then starts obeying again.)

Last edited by Anaraxes; 11-10-2016 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 11-10-2016, 12:12 PM   #18
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Default Re: Mind Control Questions

Thanks, but I'm not using Baneful Song. Just Mind Control (PM: Bard Song) which doesn't include Reduced Duration nor Area Effect.
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Old 11-10-2016, 12:20 PM   #19
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Thanks, but I'm not using Baneful Song. Just Mind Control (PM: Bard Song) which doesn't include Reduced Duration nor Area Effect.
If it's your own build, then you seem to have answered your own question. Without a Limitation to adjust the duration of the MC, it lasts for a minute (by default) after you stop Concentrating. Without Area Effect, it only affects one target -- though since it has a duration, that doesn't preclude you serially initiating control of multiple targets. (Though note the special modifier of -1 per existing slave under your control defined in the text for Mind Control.)

If that matches your concept of a bard song, then great. If not, then you probably need to add some modifiers to make it fit your concept. The DF builds show one way to do it.
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Old 11-10-2016, 12:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: Mind Control Questions

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Originally Posted by JMason View Post
1) If the bard must keep singing, I assume the target must also still be able to hear the song. In cases where the bard commands the subject to leave, that will only last till they get outside of the audible range of the song, right?
"Anything that affects others only works on targets who can hear the music", so yes.

Quote:
2) What about controlling multiple subjects? Does the bard (turn 1) concentrate and begin singing. Then (turn 2) concentrate on the second subject while the "dropping" the concentration on the first (but letting the 1 min per margin of victory last) while keep singing? Basically allowing the song to maintain the magic for both (or even more) subjects?
Bardic Mind Control is just Mind Control (Bard-Song -30%), so it allows multiple simultaneous slaves at -1 per. On your first turn you can control one, on your second turn you keep concentrating and can control a second one at -1, on the third turn -3 and so on. You don't get the lingering duration until you stop concentrating.

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3) How long before the subject begins to act on the Bard's command? Basic states that the character with Mind Control must concentrate for one second then roll. I've been treating this the same as a 1 second spell, where they may concentrate and roll on the same combat turn. This means that the control begins immediately and the subject will do what the bard wants on IT's next turn... but maybe it needs to loose "its" turn and instead act on the Bards next turn.
Never muck around with turn sequence in GURPS, it breaks things when you do. The slaves act on their turns. Remember that talking (or singing!) is free action, so the bard can totally give them instructions whenever he needs to.
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