Combat with bare hands, daggers, cestus, and clubs

[zot]

Is this section from Advanced Melee being preserved? Several people (including me) weren't sure, based on the new Unarmed Combat talent write-ups.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by zot

Is this section from Advanced Melee being preserved? Several people (including me) weren't sure, based on the new Unarmed Combat talent write-ups.

You are talking about the table on page 21 of Advance Melee, I assume. There are a lot of typos in that section, so it has to be revised, if not deleted.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

I assume he means the section where it says how much damage is done with bare hands, cestus, clubs, etc, and the fact it says it's based on the attacker's ST, not a flat value (or in basic Melee, a comparison of the ST of the people in HTH).

[Jim Kane]

I never understood why this chart went from 1+3 directly to 2+1, completely by-passing 2d6 altogether.

I do think a Bare-hand Damage Chart is essential content; and yes, this section needs revision.

JK

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

I never understood why this chart went from 1+3 directly to 2+1, completely by-passing 2d6 altogether.

It seems to me it's likely because they seem to have been short on vertical space, didn't use two columns, and so they started going up to categories 10 ST points wide at that point (2d+1 is the ST 30 to 40 bracket). Later categories jump by one die, and are in Giant territory, where Melee had established a precedent of 1d+1 per 10 ST with giant clubs. It would make a lot more sense to break out the table so there is a ST range for every damage amount increase, rather than having no effect for +9 ST and then adding 1 die damage for the next ST point, then no increase for 9 again...

[zot]

Maybe I was too indirect, since people are speculating on what I meant! Let me change it to two very related questions:

1) Will a ST 30 character do 2d+4 with a club, like in Advanced Melee, or 1d like in Melee?

2) Will a ST 15 character do 1d with bare hands, like in Advanced Melee or will they do 1d-4, 1d-3, or 1d-2, depending on the ST of their opponent, like in Melee?

[zot]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

I never understood why this chart went from 1+3 directly to 2+1, completely by-passing 2d6 altogether.

I do think a Bare-hand Damage Chart is essential content; and yes, this section needs revision.

JK

The bare hand damage chart just follows the normal weapon damage progression, which makes +3 equal to +1d and -3 equal to -1d. Some people don't like that because the average of 1d is 3.5 but that's how the damage chart has always worked:

ST 9:. 1d . . . . (Rapier)
ST 10: 1d+1, 2d-2 (hammer, cutlass)
ST 11: 1d+2, 2d-1 (small ax, short sword, mace)
ST 12: 2d . . . . (broadsword)
ST 13: 2d+1, 3d-2 (morning star, bastard sword)
ST 14: 2d+2, 3d-1 (great hammer, two-handed sword)
ST 15: 3d . . . . (battle axe)

Here's what changing ST by one point does on the weapon damage chart:


Up . one from ST 11 to ST 12 goes from 1d+2 to 2d (small ax -> broadsword)
Up . one from ST 14 to ST 15 goes from 2d+2 to 3d (great hammer -> battle axe)
Down one from ST 10 to ST 9. goes from 2d-2 to 1d (hammer -> rapier)
Down one from ST 13 to ST 12 goes from 3d-2 to 2d (bastard sword -> broadsword)

[zot]

So maybe it should say:

ST 25-29: 2d

instead of ST 25-30: 1+3

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by zot

1) Will a ST 30 character do 2d+4 with a club, like in Advanced Melee, or 1d like in Melee?

OR... does he do 3+3 damage with the club, like the giant in Death Test?

JK

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

OR... does he do 3+3 damage with the club, like the giant in Death Test?

I think that just matches basic Melee for that giant's ST. My printing (3rd IIRC) of basic Melee has giants at ST 24 to 50, with clubs doing 1d+1 for every 10 ST they have.

The AM table would seem to have giants doing:
ST 24: 1d+6
ST 25-29: 1d+7
ST 30: either 1d+7 or 2d+5 (due to typo in table listing ST 30 twice)
ST 31-39: 2d+5
ST 40: either 2d+5 or 3d+5 (due to typo in table listing ST 30 twice)
ST 41-49: 3d+5
ST 50: either 3d+5 or 4d+5 (due to typo in table listing ST 30 twice)
ST 51-59: 4d+5
ST 60: either 4d+5 or 5d+5 (due to typo in table listing ST 30 twice)

Though it also seems to me if a human does +4 over bare hand damage with a two-handed club, that a giant's giant club might do even more than that...